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Author Topic:   Problems with U.S. science education regarding evolution?
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 16 of 26 (187873)
02-23-2005 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Gary
02-23-2005 5:11 PM


Agreed, Gary. But I feel pretty strongly that evolution as a unifying principle behind biology needs to be taught, and it would be at least awkward for Teacher to say, "but we won't apply any of this to monkeys, apes, or humans in this class."

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 Message 15 by Gary, posted 02-23-2005 5:11 PM Gary has not replied

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 17 of 26 (187895)
02-23-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coragyps
02-23-2005 5:42 PM


The teacher, in peagogic superiority, could say, "WE ARE NOT GOING TO APPLY IT AS THE OBJECT(of our units on biological transmutation etc) even though you all or you (teacher names a student whom it might apply to) might see this AS THE subject but..."
Here is how W.E. LE GROS CLARK opened, "The Antecedents of Man" which lists its contents as
-The Evolutionary Process and the Primates
-A Preliminary Survey of the Primates in Space and Time
-The Evidence of the Dentition
-The Evidence of the Limbs
-The Evidence of the Brain
-The Evidence of the Special Senses
-The Evidence of the Digestive System
-The Evidence of the Reproductive System
-The Evolutionary Radiations of the Primates
Harper and Row 1959
That seems sophisticated enough to address what is needed in high school.
quote:
The Evolutionary Process and the Primates
The general conception that the more elaborately organized forms of life have evolved from simpler forms may be regarded as fairly established in the minds of biologists to-day, and indeed in the minds of most educated people. The evidence for such a thesis has accumulated in overwhelming detail since the time of Charles Darwin, and no alternative interpretation for this evidence has ever been offered which is in any way convincing or even plausible. It has been presented so fully by many well-qualified authorities and is so readily available in current publications that there is no need to recount it here except in relation to our main theme - the evolutionary history of the order of Primates. This order one of the eighteen orders of living mammals which are now generally recognized includes our own species Homo sapiens, which according to our usual way of thinking represents the culminating peak of Primate evolution. In a sense such a point of view is justified for all the evidence at present available indicates that Homo sapiens was one of the last series to become differentiated. But it is not to be inferred therefrom that Homo sapiens was, so to speak, the objective of Primate evolution..."
and if instead the budding next KCarlZimmer is in the class and about to go to the school newspaper to write up the latest on ID censorshiping the students right to study....the teacher can flip open de Cayeux's "Three Billion Years of Life" and apply from the frog that likely was already dissected the similarity applied any evidence from man the class CHOSE to discuss @
"One of the present tendencies is to express facts carefully with well-chosen words. For example, here is a frog's egg. Will teh creature hatched from it be the same frog genus, or will it have deviated? The reply is a well-known hereditary fact in the majority of cases. The doctrine of evolution replies in this way, "It is almost certain that there will be no difference or almost no difference from the frog genus." The theory of immutability suppresses the "almost" of this clear statement and replies, "It is certain that there will be no difference." From this, we can see that the theory of evolution, far from being impetuous, is rather more flexible and discreet."
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 02-23-2005 19:19 AM
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 02-23-2005 19:21 AM

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 18 of 26 (187898)
02-23-2005 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by vossy
02-23-2005 2:51 PM


In Canada
I couldn't find any numbers at all.. I am aware of groups close to Vancouver and in Alberta that are literalist. However, I go by what my kids have been taught which is a reasonable amount on evolution in their science or biology classes with no fuss at all.
In addition, we have one political party who had someone who was accussed in the press of being a young earther. It was treated as very embarassing and denied. It is not going to win a lot of votes is the impression I got from that.
On the whole we are about half as religious as the US and out here less than that.

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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 19 of 26 (187901)
02-23-2005 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by NosyNed
02-23-2005 7:11 PM


Re: In Canada
In the UK, if you got up and said most of this stuff - they would check if you were off your meds.
It's a total reverse of the states - Mentioning God in politics is NOT the done thing and is considered odd.

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 26 (187908)
02-23-2005 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by CK
02-23-2005 7:25 PM


Re: In Canada
quote:
In the UK, if you got up and said most of this stuff - they would check if you were off your meds.
It's a total reverse of the states - Mentioning God in politics is NOT the done thing and is considered odd.
That's no surprise when you think about it. Remember, the US was originally founded by all the religious nuts you guys and the rest of Europe couldn't tolerate anymore.
Of course you still obviously believe in the divine right of kings on some level or you would have tossed your nobility out a long time ago.

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 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2005 1:51 AM custard has not replied
 Message 23 by contracycle, posted 02-24-2005 6:56 AM custard has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 26 (188008)
02-24-2005 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by custard
02-23-2005 7:54 PM


Of course you still obviously believe in the divine right of kings on some level or you would have tossed your nobility out a long time ago.
You may have noticed, lately, they don't let them make too many of the laws. Probably the reason that they're not out altogether is because they own so much of the land. I mean we let Donald Trump stay for the same reason, now don't we?
Honestly, living as we do in a country where we elected a president who's only qualification has ever been that his dad was one too, I don't think we have a great deal of leeway to criticize Britain about their monarchistic throwbacks.

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 22 of 26 (188012)
02-24-2005 2:03 AM


Non-admin topic drift alert
Being that I despise GWB (aka Shrub) about as much as anyone, I thought I'd toss this out in the non-admin mode:
People - Remember the theme of the topic.
Moose

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 26 (188049)
02-24-2005 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by custard
02-23-2005 7:54 PM


Re: In Canada
quote:
Of course you still obviously believe in the divine right of kings on some level or you would have tossed your nobility out a long time ago.
The Divine Right of Kings suffered a bit of a blow at Magna Carta. And then again when we chopped the kings head off - not very divine, was he? The British monarchy has persisted precisely because it does not assert a divine right; divine right is historically least present in the British state than in any of the European monarchies.

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skiddum
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 26 (188128)
02-24-2005 11:36 AM


Carl Baugh's credentials
Educators in Creation Science Spotlight: Carl Edward Baugh
I have done some work of my own on Carl Baugh. You can view my page on his credentials here:
http://plaza.ufl.edu/dmorgan/baugh.htm
(please help me via google-bombing...I have added a link of your page)
I wouldn't care so much about exposing this guy, but for the fact that he still appears on TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network) as an "expert" and touts ridiculous lies. I am a Christian, and it just plain old bothers me that people are being lied to by a hack like him. I have a friend who really admires the guy, calls him a genius all the time, and shows his hogwash videos at Bible Study groups because he really believes them. I so badly want to tell him all this stuff, but I am waiting until I put together the last pieces I am missing. I just can't believe this guy is still on the air. We have to make a rock-solid case to prove his misrepresentation and put it out there so people can see that he has lied.
You can review this and post anything you like, WITHOUT MODIFICATION, just please give me a reference (post my name in the ref section as having given you the info, and the URL).
I already wrote him with the info, so don't think this is "behind-the-back". He can feel free to email me any time. If I am wrong about anything, I will freely correct it. I am an honest man, although he may not like that much, and so I will put only the facts that can be substantiated on my own and any other webpage. Nothing that is verifiably wrong (or uncertain--unreferenced) will remain on this page. Conversely, nothing with good references will be removed without proof/evidence from his side.

custard
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 26 (188252)
02-24-2005 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by contracycle
02-24-2005 6:56 AM


Re: In Canada
divine right is historically least present in the British state than in any of the European monarchies.
But it is MORE present than in the US where monarchy doesn't exist. And that's what I was comparing it to: the USA, not other countries that have monarchies.
However weak it may be, the concept of Divine Right of Kings still exists in Britain by the continued acceptance of monarchy, however limited. England's monarch is still the head of the church for goodness sakes!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-25-2005 12:35 AM custard has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 26 of 26 (188314)
02-25-2005 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by custard
02-24-2005 6:38 PM


Very off-topic stuff happening - Closed at least temporarily
The person this message is a reply to is not the only culprit.
Going to close this topic, at least for a while.
Anyone wanting it reopened (to be on-topic) should make the request at the "Thread Reopen Requests" topic, link below.
Adminnemooseus

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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