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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 106 of 224 (725385)
04-26-2014 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Stile
03-10-2014 9:39 AM


mikey masochist
If it's your personal belief that maybe there's "something a little off" about this whole Jesus thing... and that something is really picking at your brain... then figure it out! You'll never be able to move past the junction of indecision until you deal with your doubts.
I have doubts. But they only come during depression, so I don't trust myself any more. The problem is, even when you see proof before your eyes, that doesn't matter if you are in a world of hurt. I also had a kind of breakdown last summer, and I am not sure I can ever recover from it. It's been a year now, and I've got to admit, it tends to erode faith.
I would say in a way, I have to believe. I have enough personal proof, without that proof I would have to walk away,but also, I look at the things that have changed in my life, as it says we become "sanctified". I used to have a bad temper, and it literally does not exist now. I used to have a problem with lusts, for material goods and the usual kind, and that is pretty much gone now, mostly I walk in freedom. I used to curse a lot, but I don't know. I used to be very high strung, ready to pounce.
You see it says we are being made more like Christ, it's the Holy Spirit that leads us into "all truth" and cleanses us from sin. I have also grown in wisdom. It just doesn't seem like these evidences should follow if there is no truth to the life of God.
But if there is a glimmer of a chance that I am conning myself, no matter how the proof seems, I would want to know. I just want to know the truth, however painful, I am not against death, I've never had a problem with ending and when I am in depression, the thought of death even excites me, the atheist scenario, in that sense - has never bothered me because not existing is not new to me, because before 1981, I didn't exist for the whole time the universe did exist.
Everyone with humility has to ask the question as to whether they are wrong. If I am somehow wrong, that would be a regret to me, for starters I would probably deeply regret fighting so hard against people like people at EvC. I could only say in my defense that if I was ultimately wrong about God, then the universe practically duped me, because when you speak in tongues, have the presence of God fall on you, and have your inner sins cleansed all just from believing, then if it is not true, then this is one bloody weird universe, or I am simply one very complex person. Lol
But truth I suppose, it what matters most to me. Those experiences are all true, you can count on that, but even those things aren't enough sometimes, when you are in a dark place.
P.S> It's a strange life, here is an example, during one depression I was swearing at God loudly because of pain, and I thought He would be mad, but I felt a peace come to me, that hovered there for about an hour. It's a bizarre experience to feel both angry and at peace, I guess it's like being warm except for having freezing cold feet. I can't explain it but it seems the Holy Spirit is always there. I also have red outlined scriptures, three of the most important are in Habbakuk, Numbers and Isaiah. Last month, on three nights, I asked for God to give me those scriptures to encourage me. He did, every time. I later tried to figure out the odds, I think it was 600 to 1 for each time. I know - just coincidences, but still amazing. For a test, I tried to open on thos scriptures again to see if I was duping myself. I tried to get it to opn on Number 23, I even AIMED at that page, I tried one hundred times to make it hit it, the closest I got was the page next to it. it's just very convincing, when you ask for one page, and *BAM* it opens on it, and there it is, outlined in red, the one thing you needed to hear to keep going, and hoping.
Obviously in the past I have asked for the same thing, and it's happened hundreds of times. I could of course just be getting extremely lucky but why aren't I that lucky on the horses?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Stile, posted 03-10-2014 9:39 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Stile, posted 04-28-2014 11:53 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 107 of 224 (725548)
04-28-2014 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
04-25-2014 12:47 PM


Re: Jesus - The only way?
Phat writes:
To choose to surrender to a higher power or not.
If this is the way you think the situation unfolds, then I hope it works out for you.
For me, this really isn't a choice or option that's on the table. It's just someone elses' idea of dealing with the unknown.
Please note, I'm not saying I'm refusing to surrender to a higher power... I have no problem with that and do it on a daily basis.
What I'm attempting to explain is that, to me, this is meaningless and therefore just "not considered." There doesn't seem to be any reason to give this idea any credence.
For me, raising the importance of this particular choice would happen whenever a higher power makes itself known to us. Until then, this remains as just someone else's viewpoint. And I hope it works out for them.
...I guess we could determine what it is that either works or does not work.
Ah... yes, the secret of life
Let me know if you make any progress.
My progress so far only leads me to believe that any specific idea doesn't seem to work for everyone. Therefore, we all need to figure out what it is that works for us.
The summation of our discussion as to whether Jesus is indeed the only way is based entirely on the agreeable idea that it is an individual decision and never one of contrived agreement...be it at church or be it at a discussion board.
Well, no.
I mean... that's certainly an aspect, but the summation is hardly "based entirely" on it being an individual decision.
There's also the completely objective, physical facts that show all of us that those on average who do spend their entire lives "with Jesus" do not end up with any discernible difference from those who do not.
This tells us that spending your time "with Jesus" has no effect on our earthly lives.
You can believe that your after-death time may be affected, or you can accept the evidence that's staring us in the face.
That's where the individual choice comes in:
-some people will rather focus on the weakness of evidence... that it never shows anything to be 100% true... and then they gain much comfort and happiness from the hope of an after-death blissful existence "with Jesus." There's nothing wrong with this.
-others accept the evidence for what it is... our best possible method so far of accurately describing our reality. And they gain much comfort and happiness from various other hopes and dreams and non-"with Jesus" factors. There's nothing wrong with this, either.
-some folks are even able to do some sort of combination of the two that I don't even understand. This doesn't make it wrong, though... it just makes is different. And, as long as it works for them... then it's also right.
The point is to honestly figure out which one you lean closer towards, then move in that direction. You'll be happier if you align your day-to-day thoughts and ideas with whatever it is you honestly lean closer towards. This is not a "you'll be happier in the afterlife" promise... this is a measurable, see-it-for-yourself kind of happiness that we can all experience today. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you'll feel better if you do the things you think are right vs. doing things you think are wrong or not-justified. Don't live your life for other people... there's plenty of other people living those lives already. Live your life for you, you're the only one with that option. If you don't do it, no one will.
In a nutshell: "The truth will set you free."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 04-25-2014 12:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 108 of 224 (725551)
04-28-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by mike the wiz
04-26-2014 5:42 PM


Re: mikey masochist
mike the wiz writes:
I have doubts. But they only come during depression, so I don't trust myself any more.
I don't have depression (my condolences, it's not an easy thing). But I don't trust myself either I'm too... squishy.
I would say in a way, I have to believe.
Then it's easy... you should believe.
Unless, of course, you felt a pang of un-satisfaction reading that previous sentence... that's a hint that there's something you need to figure out first.
Maybe figuring it out will lead you to believe more.
Maybe it will lead you to believe less.
That's something that no one can ever tell you, you have to experience it.
I can say, though... that if you do feel a nagging dis-satisfaction with your belief... it's not going to go away until you figure it out.
You then have to decide if you want it to go away or not... then follow that path.
also, I look at the things that have changed in my life, as it says we become "sanctified". I used to have a bad temper, and it literally does not exist now. I used to have a problem with lusts, for material goods and the usual kind, and that is pretty much gone now, mostly I walk in freedom. I used to curse a lot, but I don't know. I used to be very high strung, ready to pounce.
Sounds like a lot of good improvements! Well done
Maybe it was because of being closer to Jesus.
Maybe not.
Again... no one gets that sort of information, so no one knows.
I can tell you, though... that people get over tempers, and lusts, and cursing and all sorts of ailments/personal issues... people everywhere get over these things (some don't, but some do).
Some claim their success is due to Jesus.
Some claim their success is due to other things.
The only common factor seems to be that they're all human.
And again, on average: Those who surround their lives with Jesus do not have a higher success rate than those who do not, though. An interesting fact.
You see it says we are being made more like Christ, it's the Holy Spirit that leads us into "all truth" and cleanses us from sin. I have also grown in wisdom. It just doesn't seem like these evidences should follow if there is no truth to the life of God.
Really? Why wouldn't those evidences have followed if there was no God? It sounds to me like your story of self-improvement is pretty much the same that most people go through simply by growing up and becoming adults.
This, of course, doesn't prove anything.
Maybe God controls all these things, regardless of whether or not people believe in Him.
Then again... maybe all these things occur to all people equally (on average) because God doesn't exist and that's just human nature.
I don't know the answer to that. But I can tell you that saying such things would be unlikely without God is, well... ignoring the evidence of those around you who do not believe in God.
But if there is a glimmer of a chance that I am conning myself, no matter how the proof seems, I would want to know. I just want to know the truth, however painful, I am not against death, I've never had a problem with ending and when I am in depression, the thought of death even excites me, the atheist scenario, in that sense - has never bothered me because not existing is not new to me, because before 1981, I didn't exist for the whole time the universe did exist.
Unfortunately, I didn't create this existence... so I don't know the truth for such a matter.
But I can tell you one thing... and it's also unfortunate... there will always be a "glimmer of a chance that you are conning yourself."
If you fully believe in God -> there's a glimmer of a chance you could be wrong.
If you fully believe God does not exist -> there's a glimmer of a chance you could be wrong.
It's not a God-based thing... it's a people-based thing.
Just because you're human, on every single thing you "know"... there's always "a glimmer of a chance" that you could be wrong.
It's just a part of being human and existing here... we simply don't get a "reality measuring stick" to base things against.
I do agree, though... I would like to know for sure as well
Everyone with humility has to ask the question as to whether they are wrong. If I am somehow wrong, that would be a regret to me, for starters I would probably deeply regret fighting so hard against people like people at EvC. I could only say in my defense that if I was ultimately wrong about God, then the universe practically duped me, because when you speak in tongues, have the presence of God fall on you, and have your inner sins cleansed all just from believing, then if it is not true, then this is one bloody weird universe, or I am simply one very complex person. Lol
Speaking in tongues, having the presence of God fall on you and having your sins cleansed all just from believing aren't the only things that make this a bloody weird universe. There's lots of non-God things that make it weird too like: contortionists, sword-swallowers, hot-coals-walkers and all sorts of other fantastic things people can do.
Again, the feelings you felt seem to be feelings that all humans are quite capable of having. Some do it religiously, others do not. Some can control them, others can't. But "believing in God" doesn't seem to be a dividing factor between having those feelings and not having those feelings.
Regardless of all that... this universe most certainly is "bloody weird" and you (like most people) are also likely "very complex" (again, that's just how people are).
The only time I ever thought I met a "simple person" is when I haven't spent much time with them.
It seems to me, the more time I spend with any person I begin to realize just how complex they are. This would lead me to believe that all people are complex, and I'm just not aware of each person's "complexities" until I spend enough time with them.
Again, maybe all that stuff is from God.
But, again, maybe it isn't. We just don't get to know.
But truth I suppose, it what matters most to me. Those experiences are all true, you can count on that, but even those things aren't enough sometimes, when you are in a dark place.
If truth is what matters most, then you should start to investigate all the methods by which man has ever identified in order to describe "the truth." Find out which are more accurate than others... find out when this can be used and when that has to be used. Once you gain a better understanding of "truth" and how we can identify it (hint: we can't ). Then you can gather or invent the tools you'll need to discover the "most accurate truth" you're capable of. Who knows? Maybe you'll be the first one to actually find a method to identify real, definite truth!
P.S> It's a strange life, here is an example...
There's no doubt to this being a strange life. It most certainly is.
Maybe God and the Holy Spirit were leading you those days. Maybe they still are. Maybe they aren't.
This is what I know, though:
If you want to find a way to hold onto your beliefs... you will, eventually.
If you want to find a way to get rid of your beliefs... you will, eventually.
If you want to find the truth regardless of your beliefs... you will not. We just don't get to know "the truth" due to being humans existing in this reality.
My point is to be honest and identify "your wants" for the things you can control. Then your "eventually" time for getting to those points will be faster and sooner... which means you'll feel more peaceful faster and sooner.
Sometimes "your wants" can change, too... that's also a part of being human
Good luck, it can be a long journey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by mike the wiz, posted 04-26-2014 5:42 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 04-29-2014 2:50 AM Stile has replied
 Message 115 by mike the wiz, posted 05-02-2014 6:52 AM Stile has replied
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 01-10-2015 7:11 AM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 109 of 224 (725596)
04-29-2014 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Stile
04-28-2014 11:53 AM


Re: mikey masochist
Stile writes:
Those who surround their lives with Jesus do not have a higher success rate than those who do not, though. An interesting fact.
How would one test for such things?

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Stile, posted 04-28-2014 11:53 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Stile, posted 04-29-2014 12:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 110 of 224 (725608)
04-29-2014 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
04-29-2014 2:50 AM


The Power of Christ
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
Those who surround their lives with Jesus do not have a higher success rate than those who do not, though. An interesting fact.
How would one test for such things?
Demographics
Studies on the results of people's well being are done all the time, it's kind of important to us... being people who want to be "well."
Studies on factors like religion's attachment to those results are also done all the time.
Here's a basic list of countries by Quality of Life. And here's a look at how many people in each country believe in God.
Taking these things together we get something like this:
Quality of Life Ranking Country % that Believe in God
1 Norway < 25%
3 Netherlands < 30%
4 USA > 70%
10 Sweden < 20%
So, what does this mean?
Does this mean that not believing in God increases your quality of life above the levels of the US where most people do believe in God?
Then what about Sweden... why would it be below?
The obvious answer is that there's no direct correlation between quality of life and believing in God.
There's also the "common sense" explanation:
Doctor's look for cures.
If a doctor finds a cure whatever it is they can help lots of people with it.
If "being with Jesus" actually worked... doctors would know about it and recommend it to everyone.
Why do you think such a cure isn't adopted universally?
Is it really because people are against religion so much that they don't even want to be happy?
Or, maybe... it's because Jesus Christ doesn't actually help all people be happy.
Is there a conspiracy going on holding back the power of Christ from the entire world... who already know about it anyway... it's just not working for some reason?
Or... maybe the power of Christ just doesn't work for everybody.
None of this indicates that believing in Jesus Christ can't make you happy/healthy. (This is also obviously false).
What it means is that believing in Jesus Christ isn't required in order to make you happy/healthy. (You can be happy/healthy through other means).
It also means that believing in Jesus Christ won't necessarily help you to be the happiest/healthiest you can be. (It's possible, but certainly not required).
Maybe you (and Mike) and any other individual is the sort of person where Jesus Christ is required for you to be happy and/or healthy. Certainly possible. This is where being honest with yourself comes in.
But to go on and say that Jesus Christ is somehow required for anyone or everyone to be happy and/or healthy is patently refuted by reality and common sense.
Which is all I'm trying to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 04-29-2014 2:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Diomedes, posted 04-29-2014 3:41 PM Stile has replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 111 of 224 (725621)
04-29-2014 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Stile
04-29-2014 12:02 PM


Re: The Power of Christ
The obvious answer is that there's no direct correlation between quality of life and believing in God.
This reminds me of a study that was performed by Pew (I think) a year or two ago. It was measuring happiness levels and religiosity.
What was interesting is when the study was performed in the USA, they found a positive correlation between whether or not one was religious and how happy they were. It did, at least initially, seem to give credence to the notion that being more religious does make one more happy.
However, they then performed a similar set of studies in countries that are known to be far less religious. Like Sweden or the Netherlands. And interestingly enough, they found the exact opposite correlation. People who identified as less religious seemed to be more more happy in those regions.
What it seemed to ultimately dictate, at least to a certain degree, is that the happiness component seemed to be more positively correlated with a feeling of being more in line with the status quo and feeling like one was part of the general community. So in places where religion is more dominant, people are happier associating with that religion or its institutions for want of fitting in. Likewise, in areas where the status quo is one where there is less general religiosity, happiness there was demonstrated by the non-religious.
So happiness in a certain sense is more correlated with that of conformity than anything else. Fitting in and feeling like you are part of a broader social group is something that generally aligns with higher levels of happiness in humans. Which I guess makes sense since we are a social animal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Stile, posted 04-29-2014 12:02 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 04-30-2014 2:24 PM Diomedes has not replied
 Message 113 by Stile, posted 05-01-2014 12:42 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 112 of 224 (725688)
04-30-2014 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Diomedes
04-29-2014 3:41 PM


Re: The Power of Christ
Diomedes writes:
So happiness in a certain sense is more correlated with that of conformity than anything else.
Maybe. It makes sense that people feel good marching with the parade but what if there is no parade? Maybe they just feel good not having to march.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Diomedes, posted 04-29-2014 3:41 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 113 of 224 (725759)
05-01-2014 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Diomedes
04-29-2014 3:41 PM


Re: The Power of Christ
Thanks for the information, very interesting.
I agree with the results, but I have a slightly different view on the interpretation.
Diomedes writes:
What it seemed to ultimately dictate, at least to a certain degree, is that the happiness component seemed to be more positively correlated with a feeling of being more in line with the status quo and feeling like one was part of the general community.
Quite possible.
I think it's more complicated (but I'm biased, I like to think people are complicated )
I think that being happy is more related to something "reducing stress" then it is to something "fitting in."
That is... some people do not want to fit in, but I will certainly admit that most do.
If that can be accepted, it's easy to see how "fitting in" reduces stress for most people... if you agree with most people you encounter, your encounters will be less stressful.
So happiness in a certain sense is more correlated with that of conformity than anything else. Fitting in and feeling like you are part of a broader social group is something that generally aligns with higher levels of happiness in humans. Which I guess makes sense since we are a social animal.
I don't think conformity is the greatest factor. I just think conformity is the greatest factor for most people on average.
That is, I think that doing things that align with what you actually want to do is the greatest factor.
For most people, this is conformity.
But for some, this is not conformity.
Of course there will be some people (like serial killers) who will have a lot of difficulty doing what they like to do...
But, a serial killer still gets the most personal happiness from killing others.
To a degree, we all have to figure our way through that mess. Most of us have "happiness desires" that do not break the laws of our society. We should consider ourselves lucky.
Those that do have desires that break the laws of society can choose to live an unhappy existence or choose to pursue their happiness and deal with the consequences.
I do basically agree with this study... that conforming brings happiness to most people.
I just don't agree with a statement that says conformity brings happiness to all people. I think that's rather obvious and easy to show as false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Diomedes, posted 04-29-2014 3:41 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by mike the wiz, posted 05-02-2014 6:28 AM Stile has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 114 of 224 (725829)
05-02-2014 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Stile
05-01-2014 12:42 PM


Re: The Power of Christ
Of course there will be some people (like serial killers) who will have a lot of difficulty doing what they like to do...
But, a serial killer still gets the most personal happiness from killing others.
To a degree, we all have to figure our way through that mess. Most of us have "happiness desires" that do not break the laws of our society. We should consider ourselves lucky.
Those that do have desires that break the laws of society can choose to live an unhappy existence or choose to pursue their happiness and deal with the consequences.
What a warped and frightening example of how the mind that is ignorant of God, must see things according to the folly of human reason. I am frankly amazed by what I am reading.
Which is a prime example of why I was going to say that I do not accept your Pluralism, of, "if it works for you" type thing. There are people with VILE hearts, and no conscience, that clearly act out and feed their lusts to a point where they can't control them.
This is why when I told you, the Holy Spirit has done a work in me, you done a very strange thing and COMPARED my experience to those living for their desires/happiness. Such "happiness" is beneath me, how can you even mention such a thing to me, when I have told you that I have suffered terribly. "For your sake we are killed all the day long" Those who have taken up their cross, are not living for some shallow, "happiness", we are not living for the TEMPORARY. " Do not fix your eyes on what is seen, for the things that are seen are temporary, but the things that are unseen, are eternal"
Please note, a true comparison would be to show how bad the world can get, if we don't have the Holy Spirit. For me, my "desire" comes under, "normal male desire", as intended by the genetics God created. But my "lust" is a sin, that comes from unhealthily feeding desire in the wrong way. That desire has a purpose, but note that someone with an unhealthy desire for "happiness" is willing to INFLICT terrible pain on to someone else. This is called SIN. That you don't know that it is SIN, is frankly frightening to me. That you CONFLATE natural desire with sin, is also strange. It is clear that if there is an intended biological function, then anything apart from that function is a malfunction of some sort. (SIN)
You make out that a vile person is somehow a victim of their own desire. That is not proven in the least. God has shown the intended purpose for sexual desire, anything else is a corruption of the sinful nature. But even those with perverse desires can have the Holy Spirit, to control them. I have known of homosexuals that are in Christ, and they agree with me, they agree that the original intention, in a sinful world, leads to many corruptions of our flesh. Even if you have those desires, you are right about one thing Stile, in your folly. You are right that people have a choice, and if they have a choice, then they are not forced to do terrible things, they chose to do them. It was good for their flesh, but I am telling you, there is a way out of all of that darkness, through Jesus Christ. It's a genuine way, otherwise it would not work. Nor is it pluralism, it is universal - anyone can accept Christ, and He "always" "works for them." what is clear is that the world on it's own, is a terrible place without Him, and rightfully so, for if it was a paradise without Him, then that would prove the world does not need a saviour. Imagine all of the suffering Bundy could have not inflicted if he had made the choice I have made, to not feed those lusts that corrupt? Can you imagine what someone else had to go through just to gratify his disgusting, violent and debased desires? That you could consider any of that "happiness" and propose that such "happiness" be valid in some manner, makes me almost want to scream at you, "BE SAVED!! Have your understanding enlightened! See the world for what it is, a terrible, terrible sinning ground."
My desires are normal but that doesn't make me any different, if I have a desire to cheat with someone's wife or sleep around, that doesn't mean I am a victim, but first I had to indulge the lust, I chose to feed it.
You see if Bundy had had the Holy Spirit, he wouldn't have indulged lust to the point of living out terrible fantasies. To even contemplate these lusts as "valid" means that your thinking Stile, has been terribly polluted by a sinful world. It is a very terrible sin, to commit violence for your own pleasure, it is debased, and shows just how far away people are, from God as indicated by your bizarre humanism that caters for evil.
An experience of Christ is the opposite, we die to the world, die to sin, and are alive to God. Such people would never make that choice because of what John 1, says, that people "prefer" the darkness to the light. (paraphrase) That given a choice, most people would party hard and go to hell, than to choose an unselfish, and beautiful path of righteousness, to become all of those fruits of the spirit, that are harmless, such as gentleness, self control, patience, joy, love. People that love others in this way have a joy that makes them CRINGE at your philosophy of happiness, and utterly horrible, selfish way of living for yourself, and nothing else. Your very words show you have never known the love of God, such "happiness" is a very empty prospect. Loving people and denying self is the key to true and righteous happiness, and you need to know it in a quick fire hurry!!!
Notice that the key problem in this scenario, was the sin of lust. Those born again, have known how such problems can be dealt with and utterly wiped out. But you recommend folly - that a person should "do what works for them" (paraphrasing you).
No, people should not do what works for them, because it leads to a very disgusting world and an induction of sin, off the scale.
That is now the horrible place we live in, because of the choice people make to indulge their sinful nature. In the end everyone must give an account for what they did while in the body, and they will face justice. They think they get away with it because physically, God does not restrain them. They are wrong. Those that know the truth know that they will answer for every vile crime.
There are probably atheists now, reading this, knowing they have horrible passions, and their consciences are convicting them as they read my words. To them I would say, forgiveness is available, and escape is available. You can know the power of the Holy Spirit in your life, as can anyone. You can escape the corruption of selfish desires, by knowing Christ, and the power He can give you, to set you free from sin.
(I genuinely don't mean this as an attack on you Stile, I was just very, very surprised by the level of ignorance you have. My initial post you could only see as relevant to "happiness" and I will in all honesty be praying that the veil of deceit be removed from your clearly blinded heart. Blind to sin, blind to the terribleness of a world without the love of God. I hope you can one day taste of that unselfish love, that you are so ignorant of. God bless you mightily!)
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Stile, posted 05-01-2014 12:42 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Stile, posted 05-02-2014 11:27 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 115 of 224 (725832)
05-02-2014 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Stile
04-28-2014 11:53 AM


Re: mikey masochist
Sorry Stile, my original post in this thread is mis-representative of true Christianity. It was written informally, conversationally. This is a debate board, I should have known better, but I was "relaxed" because we are in the F+B forum where things seem more conversational. Also I was in a moment of negativity and might have made it seem like I doubted God's existence or doubted my own faith in that kind of capacity.
Actually what I go through is the kind of "doubt" so to speak, that is more of a "regret" you might say, in that when you choose a path in life, and that path becomes immensely hard, you can want to get off that path at times.
I would also point out one thing to you. Logically, people can know things are true and not be able to prove them.
I am correct because if I am on trial for murder, and I know I am innocent, it does not matter how badly I want to prove my innocence, the presentation of my case for objective scrutiny, will be insufficient. The people will treat me objectively but they will still remain ignorant of the truth no matter how objectively their evaluation is. Like with your counter-reponse. Now imagine I presented evidence for my innocence, and you said, "maybe, maybe not." or, "could be, could not be". That is true, and it is also objective, but it shows how objectivity does not equal correctness. You are objective, but you are ignorant.
This is also the case if you are born again, for reasons the bible expounds. I would have to quote too many scriptures, and find them all, but Jesus Himself said that to see the Kingdom of God you must first be born again in order to even see it. We are also told that God "sees the heart" and rejects certain people when He sees what their heart is like. He knows every motive. You see Stile, it is literally impossible for me to prove to you what I know when Christ Himself says He witholds spiritual knowledge, and only reveals the Father "to whom He will." If I cannot even prove there is a spiritual world, how can I prove a spiritual life to someone? Won't everything I say come across as black and white, in a black and white world? How do I prove a world of colour if nobody believes it exists? So my post to you was conversational, there are no "maybes" when you have been born again, you only "doubt" when you are going through bad times and simply want out. But also please note, you are not in a position to say that the life of God could or could not be true, unless you are saying that with the evidence you have, that is the conclusion you are reaching. In that case you are being fair and objective, in that you, as an objective person, as you clearly are, can only conclude so much, given your ignorance. If that's your motive, that's fair enough, given you are so limited, and my post was so insufficient. I wouldn't expect an evaluation from you anyway given my information was so sloppy.
People would not pay millions on justice-systems, if they created a device that could remove knowledge from the criminal's brain, which PROVES you can have genuine knowledge that something is true, without being able to prove it objectively. There are many people that have been executed, that stated they were innocent, and were indeed innocent.
When I said, "if I somehow duped myself", I was just being hyper-fair, I already know that I can't have duped myself but I become irrational when I am in depression, and all "light" leaves me, all positivity goes, I can't describe that to a person that has not been in it, like you.
It would be like a person that knows they saw something clearly happen, then questioning it in their own mind because when they went to trial, they were undergoing stress. It's a cop-out, it's a psychological way of relieving yourself of the responsibility when things get tough. "Did I really see him commit that crime, I suppose my memory could have duped me, objectively speaking.", when you know exactly what you saw!!! (Cognitive dissonance)
(Please note I am not attacking you in this post when I use the term, "ignorant", it is just a reality that can't be helped. Spiritually, you ARE ignorant, because God only reveals the truth His own way, and we know that those that are not born again, are purposefully blinded until they make the decision to believe and repent.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Stile, posted 04-28-2014 11:53 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Stile, posted 05-02-2014 12:00 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 116 of 224 (725853)
05-02-2014 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by mike the wiz
05-02-2014 6:28 AM


Re: The Power of Christ
mike the wiz writes:
What a warped and frightening example of how the mind that is ignorant of God, must see things according to the folly of human reason. I am frankly amazed by what I am reading.
A serial killer's mind is not ignorant of God. In fact almost all US serial killers are also very devout Christians...
quote:
Nearly all serial killers are very devout men who were raised by members of Pentecostal sects, fundamentalist Catholics or were 'hard-shell' Baptists and Methodists."
I'm not spouting an opinion here, only relaying facts. I'm sorry if they are difficult to hear.
Those who have taken up their cross, are not living for some shallow, "happiness", we are not living for the TEMPORARY.
I hope it works out for you, it is definitely the best path for some.
That desire has a purpose, but note that someone with an unhealthy desire for "happiness" is willing to INFLICT terrible pain on to someone else. This is called SIN.
Actually, it's called "evil."
That you don't know that it is SIN, is frankly frightening to me.
I certainly know that it's evil. Why would you get the impression otherwise?
This doesn't change the fact that serial killers get pleasure from killing people. Are you trying to say this is incorrect? I don't understand your indignation.
Nobody said that we should let serial killers kill people just because it makes them happy. It's... interesting... that you seem to have come to that conclusion.
That you CONFLATE natural desire with sin, is also strange. It is clear that if there is an intended biological function, then anything apart from that function is a malfunction of some sort. (SIN)
I'm not conflating a serial killer's pleasure-seeking desire to kill people with evil. I'm saying that it is evil.
You seem to be saying that because it's natural then it's not a sin? That seems very incorrect.
Being natural or not does not make something evil.
Something is evil if it hurts other people. Period. End of thought. No additional details necessary.
You make out that a vile person is somehow a victim of their own desire.
Yes, this is true.
Again. Serial killers get pleasure from killing people. This is a fact. Do you deny it?
Serial killers have a desire to kill people... because they get pleasure from it. Again, a simple fact, you are denying this?
Therefore, serial killers (vile people) are victims of their own desire to want to kill people where most people do not want to die.
This is kind of basic, I don't really see anything to disagree with. What, specifically, do you think is not valid, here?
This does not insinuate that we should give them special privilege, or not put them in jail or not stop them or not call it "evil."
But it's still all true...
Even if you have those desires, you are right about one thing Stile, in your folly.
Don't worry about me, mike, I am lucky enough to not have these uncommon and unfortunate natural urges. But your implication that I might is rather funny
It was good for their flesh, but I am telling you, there is a way out of all of that darkness, through Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the way out for some. But He doesn't work for all people.
Another way out is simply to understand the consequences that will befall you and therefore restrain yourself and learn another avenue for your desires.
Sometimes there is no way out (as far as we have uncovered, yet, anyway).
Sometimes it is (currently) impossible to retrain someone's desires from wanting to kill people towards other less-dangerous activities.
it is universal - anyone can accept Christ, and He "always" "works for them."
No, it's most certainly not universal.
If it was universal, there would be no such thing as a "deconversion" or an atheist or "any religion other than Christianity."
Obviously, since those other things trivially exist, Jesus Christ is certainly not "universal" and doesn't "always work" for everyone. It's another plain and simple fact.
what is clear is that the world on it's own, is a terrible place without Him
Also patently not true.
I myself live in a world devoid of Jesus Christ.
It's not terrible. It's full of Love.
Imagine all of the suffering Bundy could have not inflicted if he had made the choice I have made, to not feed those lusts that corrupt?
That would be fantastic.
This choice can be made with or without Jesus Christ, of course.
Can you imagine what someone else had to go through just to gratify his disgusting, violent and debased desires?
Nightmares beyond imagination.
That you could consider any of that "happiness" and propose that such "happiness" be valid in some manner, makes me almost want to scream at you, "BE SAVED!!
I don't consider any of that to be happiness or valid. What would give you that idea?
I do, however, accept that Ted Bundy found happiness/pleasure in doing such things. Do you really think otherwise? It's another fact of life you seem to be denying just because it upsets you. It upsets me, too. But me being upset doesn't change the reality of Ted Bundy's actions.
See the world for what it is, a terrible, terrible sinning ground.
Now that's sad.
If this is what you see around you, I pity you.
I certainly agree that Ted Bundy is a terrible, terrible source of evil. But Ted Bundy is hardly "the world."
It is a very terrible sin, to commit violence for your own pleasure
I agree that it's very evil, indeed.
shows just how far away people are, from God as indicated by your bizarre humanism that caters for evil.
Nothing I have said implies any catering for evil. You made that up all by yourself.
Notice that the key problem in this scenario, was the sin of lust. Those born again, have known how such problems can be dealt with and utterly wiped out. But you recommend folly - that a person should "do what works for them" (paraphrasing you).
No, this is not what I said.
I said a person should "do what works for them" in order to be happy. Really, it's the only way.
I never said a person should "do what works for them" in order to function in society and live out a normal life.
One is selfish, the other is finding a way to co-exist with others.
Lucky people (like myself) get to have the two align so it doesn't matter. I get to be selfish while co-existing with others.
Unlucky people (like Ted Bundy) have a mess to deal with. Bundy made poor choices to deal with his mess.
The way to get through difficult messes is to have the information you require to make better choices.
Just hand-waving it away and saying "let the Holy Spirit into your heart!" doesn't do anything. And it doesn't work to help the unlucky people make better choices. It's useless preaching such as this that prods people like Bundy ever-closer to making more and more poor choices towards the catastrophic end-game of their desires.
People that love others in this way have a joy that makes them CRINGE at your philosophy of happiness, and utterly horrible, selfish way of living for yourself, and nothing else.
If you don't want to understand me or listen to what I say, that's fine.
I would appreciate it, though, if you wouldn't be so mean about misconstruing what it is you think I'm talking about.
It's bad form.
I genuinely don't mean this as an attack on you Stile, I was just very, very surprised by the level of ignorance you have.
Don't worry about it, mike. It's obvious to anyone who reads this conversation which of us is ignorant of the other's viewpoint.
Take care, and I hope everything works out for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by mike the wiz, posted 05-02-2014 6:28 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 117 of 224 (725855)
05-02-2014 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by mike the wiz
05-02-2014 6:52 AM


Re: mikey masochist
mike the wiz writes:
Actually what I go through is the kind of "doubt" so to speak, that is more of a "regret" you might say, in that when you choose a path in life, and that path becomes immensely hard, you can want to get off that path at times.
Yes, this is something that happens to pretty much everybody, no matter what path they choose.
I would also point out one thing to you. Logically, people can know things are true and not be able to prove them.
Only if they are never mistaken.
If you can be mistaken, how can you know it's true if you can't prove it?
I agree that you can act on the idea that it's true... but you can't know it's true unless you can show it or prove it in someway. That's what the word "know" means.
Now, you do have a point that it's quite possible for something to actually be true where we cannot prove it, or know it.
That is a valid statement.
But it's trivially invalid to say that you can "know" something is true, but be unable to show that it actually is.
You are objective, but you are ignorant.
Oh, I'm certainly ignorant of a great many things.
Anything specific you have in mind?
there are no "maybes" when you have been born again, you only "doubt" when you are going through bad times and simply want out.
I do agree. It is quite possible to believe you are correct regardless of any evidence or proof or even contrary facts.
It is quite possible to even be correct without evidence or proof.
And this certainty works extremely well for certain people. Perhaps you are one of these people where this works well for you.
For me, though... I'm just not built this way.
I am unable to remove all my doubts simply because I believe something is true.
But also please note, you are not in a position to say that the life of God could or could not be true, unless you are saying that with the evidence you have, that is the conclusion you are reaching.
That is all I am saying.
Based on the information (evidence/proof/whatever) we are able to collect and verify... it all seems to point towards God not existing.
Each of us then has to decide if we want to base our conclusion on the information we're able to collect and verify... or on our personal, unverifiable beliefs.
There's nothing wrong with either choice.
And, if you're honest with yourself, there might be one you will lean towards.
If you choose to go with the one you lean towards... things will make more sense.
If you choose to go against the one you lean towards... things will always have a nagging sense of dis-satisfaction.
if they created a device that could remove knowledge from the criminal's brain, which PROVES you can have genuine knowledge that something is true, without being able to prove it objectively.
No, that wouldn't prove anything.
And I agree, you certainly can have "genuine knowledge that something is true without being able to prove it objectively" in the sense that it's quite possible to be correct about something without being able to prove that you are.
You can't, however, "know that you are correct about something" without being able to show that you are correct about something.
You can feel like you know you are correct.
But... everyone feels like they know they are correct about everything they claim to know.
Haven't you ever been wrong?
Have you never thought you put the milk in the fridge but accidentally left it on the counter? Or maybe put it in the pantry?
We all think we're correct until we find out we made a mistake.
This doesn't mean everything in our minds is useless.
It means that some thoughts will be right and others will be wrong.
If you've never been wrong... then I stand corrected.
But, if it's possible for you to make a mistake... then my point stands.
If you can make a mistake, you cannot know that the idea in your head is correct unless you can show it to be correct.
It may actually be correct still... but you just don't "know" that.
Removing knowledge from a criminal's brain would only show you what the criminal feels he knows.
There are many people that have been executed, that stated they were innocent, and were indeed innocent.
Very true.
Also true: There are many people that have been executed, that stated they were innocent, and were actually guilty.
I already know that I can't have duped myself...
This is simply impossible unless you have never made a mistake or you can show the results to other people.
"Did I really see him commit that crime, I suppose my memory could have duped me, objectively speaking.", when you know exactly what you saw!!! (Cognitive dissonance)
This is exactly the reason why personal witnesses are extremely unreliable in any and all court proceedings.
Spiritually, you ARE ignorant, because God only reveals the truth His own way, and we know that those that are not born again, are purposefully blinded until they make the decision to believe and repent.
Actually, I am not spiritually ignorant. I am very spiritual, perhaps even more so than yourself... but I don't know (and don't really care, either).
You are correct in your idea, though... I certainly am ignorant of God.
Maybe I'm ignorant of God because He hasn't revealed Himself to me for whatever reason (perhaps my fault... perhaps his choice...).
Maybe I'm ignorant of God because He simply doesn't exist.
You say it's the former.
All evidence that humans have ever gathered in the history of mankind favours the latter.
I tentatively go with the latter.
But I'm open to be shown otherwise, if you have anything you can offer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by mike the wiz, posted 05-02-2014 6:52 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 118 of 224 (726027)
05-05-2014 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
09-18-2012 5:54 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Short answer, yes we need God. We need hope, we need understanding, we need Love, and a bunch of other human nessessitys. God as I imagine Him is all those things. I believe those things emanate from God. It is what separates us from space dust. People who don't believe in a god, still seek those things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 09-18-2012 5:54 PM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 05-06-2014 12:17 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 120 by Straggler, posted 05-06-2014 12:49 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 119 of 224 (726080)
05-06-2014 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by riVeRraT
05-05-2014 9:11 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
riVeRraT writes:
We need hope, we need understanding, we need Love, and a bunch of other human nessessitys.... People who don't believe in a god, still seek those things.
And find them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by riVeRraT, posted 05-05-2014 9:11 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(3)
Message 120 of 224 (726082)
05-06-2014 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by riVeRraT
05-05-2014 9:11 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
RR writes:
We need hope, we need understanding, we need Love, and a bunch of other human nessessitys.
OK.
RR writes:
God as I imagine Him is all those things.
RR writes:
People who don't believe in a god, still seek those things.
Ergo others don't need to base their search for these things on your imagined notion of God.
Some have a completely different notion of God to you and others make no association between the needs you list and any godly notions at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by riVeRraT, posted 05-05-2014 9:11 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
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