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Author Topic:   Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 16 of 385 (695573)
04-07-2013 11:39 PM


I think Larni was saying 14 (7 pair) of each clean animal and 2 (1 pair) of each unclean animal, not 16 animals total.
But while we're on the subject:
Q: What's harder than getting a pregnant elephant into the ark?
A: Getting an elephant pregnant in the ark!
[Noah! Make them stop. I'm getting seasick!]

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 17 of 385 (695574)
04-08-2013 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Alter2Ego
04-07-2013 12:59 AM


Welcome
Hi, Alter2Ego--welcome to EvC!
I cannot address your topic, since I am not a Christian. I'm mostly interested in science and stick to the science/secular sections.
Here, on the religion side of the forum, science is not welcome; on the science side, the religiously faithful never ever respond to issues of science with declarations of faith.
I hope you enjoy EvC.
P.S. Is your avatar pic a representation of Eve? I give extra credit for non-blue-eyed images of Jesus and his folks.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-07-2013 12:59 AM Alter2Ego has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-08-2013 4:00 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 385 (695575)
04-08-2013 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by purpledawn
04-07-2013 7:28 PM


Re: Bible Faith Belief
Sure, we can cease and desist from this angle on Bible unreliability, but I STRONGLY disagree with you about the Bible. It certainly does provide a basis for scientific thought. You are welcome to your opinion but I make no distinctions between where the Bible applies to science and science can learn from the Bible. It's not some mythic "religious" text at all, it's God's own revelation of truth we would otherwise have no way of knowing, and that includes truth about the physical world wherever it has commented on it. So don't go pontificating as from on high as to what the Bible is and is not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by purpledawn, posted 04-07-2013 7:28 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 19 of 385 (695576)
04-08-2013 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Stile
04-07-2013 5:59 PM


Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?
quote:
STILE:
Are you inviting anyone else?
I am not a Christian. But I have some questions. Don't feel like you have to answer them if you don't want to, though.
ALTER2EGO:
Anyone can participate in the discussion. I specifically invited Christians because trinity and hellfire are the central doctrines within most of the 41,000 or so denominations within Christendom.

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Stile, posted 04-07-2013 5:59 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 385 (695580)
04-08-2013 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Alter2Ego
04-07-2013 12:59 AM


The Trinity
The Trinity is not specifically named in the Bible but it is implicit in a huge array of scriptural references that together add up to the concept of One God in Three Persons. Here is An Outline Study of the relevant scriptures.
The affirmation that there is One God is the first reference in the outline for which he lists all the verses that apply.
Then the facts that the Father is God, that Jesus Christ is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God, are also demonstrated from the scripture verses affirming the attributes of each as the attributes of God. All three are JEHOVAH God. Jesus Christ IS Jehovah God.
Then he gives the scriptures that show that each is a distinct Person, God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit each described as a distinct personality.
He also gives some common objections to various points.
There are other similar outlines to be found on the interne that demonstrate the same thingt. The Jehofah's Witnesses are deluded in their belief about who Jesus Christ is and therefore about the reality and nature of the Trinity.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-07-2013 12:59 AM Alter2Ego has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-08-2013 11:38 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 34 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-09-2013 1:07 AM Faith has replied
 Message 377 by Faith, posted 07-29-2013 4:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 21 of 385 (695581)
04-08-2013 3:52 AM


Just a general warning to all about our poster. He's posted these exact same posts on multiple threads under multiple names. As he has with his new proposed thread awaiting promotion.
He's a troll, regularly banned from many threads. I doubt we'll get any further with him than any other forum ever has.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 22 of 385 (695582)
04-08-2013 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Omnivorous
04-08-2013 12:15 AM


Re: Welcome
quote:
OMNIVOROUS:
Hi, Alter2Ego--welcome to EvC!
ALTER2EGO -to- OMNIVOROUS:
Thank you for the welcome.
quote:
OMNIVOROUS:
I cannot address your topic, since I am not a Christian. I'm mostly interested in science and stick to the science/secular sections.
Here, on the religion side of the forum, science is not welcome; on the science side, the religiously faithful never ever respond to issues of science with declarations of faith.
You said theists never respond to scientific issues with declarations of faith. So that equates to "theists respond to scientific issues with scientific arguments." Is that the point you were making?

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Omnivorous, posted 04-08-2013 12:15 AM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by purpledawn, posted 04-08-2013 6:58 AM Alter2Ego has not replied
 Message 25 by Omnivorous, posted 04-08-2013 7:36 AM Alter2Ego has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 23 of 385 (695593)
04-08-2013 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Alter2Ego
04-08-2013 4:00 AM


Welcome to EvC
quote:
You said theists never respond to scientific issues with declarations of faith. So that equates to "theists respond to scientific issues with scientific arguments." Is that the point you were making?
He's being sarcastic, because some theists do respond to scientific issues with declarations of faith. He failed to mention that such responses are also met with complaints and sometimes suspension.
Hopefully you are here to debate your questions in Message 1 and not just to see what reaction you can get from those who are religion free.
Your topic seems to be focused on Bible teachings and their basis in the Bible, so scientific accuracy of the Bible is off topic. It would have been put on the science side if Admin felt the thread was going that route. If I'm incorrect, please let me know.
The Style Guides for EvC thread has helpful instructions on how to use the quote boxes here at EvC and it is always wise to read the Forum Guidelines carefully.
As for the topic, I usually take the position that the trinity and hellfire were not taught by Jesus (what we know of his supposed teachings) or Paul. I feel they came about after Christianity went to the Gentiles and pagans were assimilated.
Again, welcome to EvC and don't let yourself get pulled off course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-08-2013 4:00 AM Alter2Ego has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Omnivorous, posted 04-08-2013 7:23 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 24 of 385 (695596)
04-08-2013 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by purpledawn
04-08-2013 6:58 AM


Re: Welcome to EvC
purpledawn writes:
He's being sarcastic, because some theists do respond to scientific issues with declarations of faith. He failed to mention that such responses are also met with complaints and sometimes suspension.
I prefer the term "ironic".

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by purpledawn, posted 04-08-2013 6:58 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(3)
Message 25 of 385 (695598)
04-08-2013 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Alter2Ego
04-08-2013 4:00 AM


Re: Welcome
I see that purpledawn has authoritatively determined my meaning, as is her wont.
Let it suffice to say that the vigilance against science here vastly exceeds the vigilance against faith on the science side. How could it not? If the demand for science and evidence there were enforced as strenuously as they are made anathema here, there could be no creationist participation.
However strict purpledawn portrays the enforcement of rules for evidence on the science side to be, you will be able to judge for yourself how often religious commentary on scientific issues leads to suspensions.
Nonetheless, the welcome is genuine. I will read your posts with interest and without further comment.
PS: I remain curious about your avatar.
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-08-2013 4:00 AM Alter2Ego has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 26 of 385 (695600)
04-08-2013 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Alter2Ego
04-07-2013 10:52 PM


As I hope you are now aware I was referring to the amount of unclean animals.
Do you now concede my point about the genetic bottle neck? I appreciate that you don't want to address this (thanks for the tip, Purpledawn) and I will bow out when you respnd.
All the best.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-07-2013 10:52 PM Alter2Ego has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-08-2013 10:30 PM Larni has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 385 (695623)
04-08-2013 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Alter2Ego
04-07-2013 12:59 AM


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire?
No, the concepts of both the trinity and of hellfire, are extra-biblical.
2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible?
I suppose they came up with the concepts first.
3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?
They're not Bible teachings.
4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?
I suppose that IS when they became Christian teachings.
5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?
I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'd bet that any contradiction you're imagining can be solved by Jesus using some sort of godly powers.
6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?
Words have multiple meanings.
7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames?
If it does, I doubt it teaches it that specifically and explicitly.
8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible?
Not that I'm aware of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-07-2013 12:59 AM Alter2Ego has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 04-08-2013 5:16 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 28 of 385 (695633)
04-08-2013 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
04-08-2013 2:33 AM


Re: The Trinity
The Trinity is not specifically named in the Bible but it is implicit in a huge array of scriptural references that together add up to the concept of One God in Three Persons. Here is An Outline Study of the relevant scriptures.
Thank you, that guy does a good job. I like the way the Bible verses pop up too, that's a neat way of doing it.
I do think that occasionally he's reaching; however most of it is convincing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 04-08-2013 2:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 29 of 385 (695641)
04-08-2013 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Alter2Ego
04-07-2013 12:59 AM


Alter2Ego writes:
Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.
Three is a magic number. So are twelve and forty. If Jesus had had eleven disciples that followed him every day and one guy brought his cousin to the Last Supper, they'd still be called The Twelve. If God had four aspects, they'd arbitrarily shoehorn two of them together and the Trinity would be Father, Son and Miscellaneous.
In numerology, the number of items is more important than the items themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-07-2013 12:59 AM Alter2Ego has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 385 (695677)
04-08-2013 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by New Cat's Eye
04-08-2013 10:33 AM


Can I Get A Witness?
8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible?
No, but neither is the phrase "Theocratic Kingdom".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-08-2013 10:33 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-08-2013 5:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
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