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Author Topic:   general relativity
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 16 of 30 (123480)
07-09-2004 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by redwolf
07-09-2004 9:24 PM


punk-eek dispersal
redwolf writes:
PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.
This has actually been demonstrated in historical times by birds introduced to North America, occuring within a 50 year period.
See: http://EvC Forum: Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium
Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species (Re: Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium) -- 50 starlings introduced in 1890's and within 50 years they had spread to cover from the east coast to the west coast. The error here is the "like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day" thinking -- all they need to do is survive to breed, and starlings do that very well.
European House Sparrows are similar, but the time period is not as well known, it is less than 150 years, though, and that is still an instant in geological time.
There are also other examples that show that such things do not always happen to 'pan out' for the new species (several died out, as would be predicted from an evolution viewpoint)
This does, however, show the fallacy of the argument from incredulity (redwolfs forte, and most of the argument presented above): the lack of ability to imagine how a process occurs is no hinderance to the actual process used ... nature has already solved that problem.
Truth will beat opinion everytime.
{{Added by edit}}
As this is offtopic I suggest replies be taken to
EvC Forum: Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium
Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species (Re: Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium)
Enjoy.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 07-09-2004 08:55 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 17 of 30 (123482)
07-09-2004 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by redwolf
07-09-2004 9:24 PM


redwolf
Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.
For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number
I have never met anyone with quite this level of non-understanding of a subject.In two paragraphs you have displayed a most remarkable lack of cognizance concerning what evolution is all about.Either you are terribly ill-educated or you are incredibly biased to some philosophical point of view that you struggle to defend.
Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one.???
Could you please tell me how the bloody blue blazes this is even remotely connected to evolution? Do you seriously think that evolution involves some kind of instantaneous change from one creature into another? Whoever fed you this garbage has their head so far up their ass a Klein bottle would be envious.
Seriously mate you have got to get at least a semester or two in biology under your belt and then come back and bring out some actual arguement that has a decent chance of being taken seriously.
Until then sir I sincerely and with all due respect contend that you are without a clue.

You see a book lying on a table. You know there's a force due to gravity acting on that book. If you take that force (on the book and due to gravity) as the "action," what then is the "reaction" as required by Newton's third law?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 07-09-2004 9:52 PM sidelined has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 18 of 30 (123483)
07-09-2004 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by redwolf
07-09-2004 9:24 PM


redwolf
P.S. what the hell does this have to do with the original post on this topic?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have this question on my homework, and i dont know the answer...im hoping someone here can help me out
What explanation does general relativity provide for gravity?
1. Gravity is inversely proportional to radius.
2. Gravity is directly proportional to mass.
3. Gravity is a result of curved spacetime.
4. All of the above

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by redwolf, posted 07-09-2004 9:24 PM redwolf has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 19 of 30 (123484)
07-09-2004 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by sidelined
07-09-2004 9:48 PM


off topic
I just realized that this issue raised by redwolf is off topic and should be continued elsewhere.
You might also want to keep in mind all the possibilities that Dawkins addressed for those who don't understand evolution.
Search | Free Inquiry
heh.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by sidelined, posted 07-09-2004 9:48 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by sidelined, posted 07-09-2004 10:26 PM RAZD has replied

redwolf
Member (Idle past 5791 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 20 of 30 (123487)
07-09-2004 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by sidelined
07-09-2004 9:52 PM


quote:
P.S. what the hell does this have to do with the original post on this topic?
None really. It does however reply to the previous poster who claimed that in 140 odd posts, I'd utterly failed in demonstrating any rational arguments against either evolution or relativity.
As I noted, it's basically Gould and Eldredge who have failed.
quote:
What explanation does general relativity provide for gravity?
None, really...
Given Isaac Newton's and Albert Einstein's descriptions of gravity, one should not anticipate reading about the USAF and its major contractors such as Boeing conducting experiments in superconductor technology with the stated purpose of a local reduction in gravity, or having a standard sort of government acronym GRASP (Gravity Reduction and Advanced Space Propulsion) for such a project. Likewise, given the standard descriptions of gravity, there should be no way in which to believe that a large-scale change in gravity near the Earth's surface might have taken place within the last 10,000 years; nonethless, it is easy to demonstrate that it has.

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 21 of 30 (123491)
07-09-2004 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by RAZD
07-09-2004 9:52 PM


Re: off topic
RAZD
Ignorance is certainly no crime but argueing passionately without an understanding of what you are talking about is intellectual suicide. Allowing such drivel to continue without confrontation does nothing but enforce in a person than they are being attacked due to their stance being the correct one. I took care to be polite while also being blunt. I in no way have a problem with the man but the nature of his approach to understanding of what actually constitutes a field of knowledge where he is duly lacking is something I would not tolerate of my own children much less a stranger.
I have been guilty of the same lack of understanding as he is at a point in my life. I learned and continue to do so that the rigor of scientific investigation is not breached by hand waving antics made with empty claims of knowledge.
Anyone who truly wishes to make a contribution or point out a new way of thinking about how the world operates in a given field of endevour needs to attain the same level of dedication and expertise as those who have spent their lives at it.It would be the equivalent of telling a structural engineer that his stress calculation are based on wrong data that was meticulously arrived at through huge amounts of effort and testing.
I think that Dawkins is too kind to some people especially those who present one hand in friendship while their other is holding a knife.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 07-09-2004 9:52 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 30 (123492)
07-09-2004 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by redwolf
07-09-2004 9:24 PM


ADMIN please note:
This is the same information he has presented before and which was discussed on http://EvC Forum: Punk Eek for Redwolf -->EvC Forum: Punk Eek for Redwolf

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by redwolf, posted 07-09-2004 9:24 PM redwolf has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 23 of 30 (123496)
07-09-2004 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by sidelined
07-09-2004 10:26 PM


Re: off topic
I put those people in the malicious category. I also think the last group Dawkins was talking about should be labeled 'deluded' - and it certainly applies to some I have known.
Of the categories given, ignorance is curable, but like the lightbulb being changed by the psychologist, one has to want to change.

This message is a reply to:
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redwolf
Member (Idle past 5791 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 24 of 30 (123499)
07-09-2004 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by sidelined
07-09-2004 9:52 PM


quote:
1. Gravity is inversely proportional to radius.
2. Gravity is directly proportional to mass.
3. Gravity is a result of curved spacetime.
4. All of the above
Again, the little book I mentioned, described at:
http://www.bearfabrique.org/books/books.html
talks about gravity, and what it actually amounts to, which is basically an electrostatic dipole effect and not any sort of a magical "curved space-time" phenomenon.
As you might have noticed from the "commentary" of "Razd' and one other poster here, there is a problem inherent in trying to make information like this available to those who could profit from it while, at the same time, respecting our Lord's injunction about "casting pearls before swine".
The closest thing to a solution to the dilemma I've been able to come up with to date is to cease giving it away for free; I now charge for it.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 07-09-2004 10:55 PM redwolf has not replied
 Message 26 by Eta_Carinae, posted 07-09-2004 11:28 PM redwolf has not replied
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 07-09-2004 11:38 PM redwolf has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 30 (123501)
07-09-2004 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by redwolf
07-09-2004 10:49 PM


The closest thing to a solution to the dilemma I've been able to come up with to date is to cease giving it away for free; I now charge for it.
Now that is the funniest thing I've heard since Tessie the Tahitian Virgin.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4374 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 26 of 30 (123503)
07-09-2004 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by redwolf
07-09-2004 10:49 PM


Absolute utter bullshit...
spouted by someone who obviously hasn't a bloody clue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by redwolf, posted 07-09-2004 10:49 PM redwolf has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 27 of 30 (123505)
07-09-2004 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by redwolf
07-09-2004 10:49 PM


LOL
redwolf writes:
... the "commentary" of "Razd' ...
commentary that gives an example of dispersal of species across the continent in 50 years from an initial population of 50 birds and in the process completely refutes one of his many "arguments from incredulity" or should I say {inability to imagine how it works in the real world}.
Notice that redwolf has refused to reply to my messages -- because he has no answer for them, all he can do is cast snide comments -- and the fact remains that dispersal in a geological instant has occurred within recent times, and it is a well documented fact.
This is someone who thinks his opinions are worth selling.
ps - do go read bearfabrique, it is good comedy: venus nearly hits the earth? heh.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by redwolf, posted 07-09-2004 10:49 PM redwolf has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Melchior, posted 07-09-2004 11:53 PM RAZD has replied

Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 30 (123510)
07-09-2004 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by RAZD
07-09-2004 11:38 PM


Re: LOL
Oh, yes. I found the "This page is intended for the benefit of urban conservatives who get to reading about firearm issues on conservative forums such as FreeRepublic, and decide that in order to be a true conservative, they will have to buy a gun, despite not really knowing anything about firearms (and for people in similar situations)." article to be quite interesting.
Quite frankly, if you are going to argue for anything on an online forum, requiring anyone to BUY your own book isn't really the best way to get a good dialogue going.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 07-09-2004 11:38 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by RAZD, posted 07-10-2004 12:06 AM Melchior has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 30 (123513)
07-10-2004 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Melchior
07-09-2004 11:53 PM


Re: LOL
I was introduced to bearfabrique on another board by a creationist poster, using it to counter arguments about annual ice layers. When I questioned him on accepting all of what the articles said he backed off big time and agreed that the posts were mostly wild fantasy.
Shows that no-one is completely useless ...
... they can always serve as a bad example ..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Melchior, posted 07-09-2004 11:53 PM Melchior has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 30 of 30 (123523)
07-10-2004 12:51 AM


I suggest Mr. Holden start his own thread to discuss his pet theories. This thread was essentially dead before and I am going to close it for now as most of the new discussion was OT anyway.
Any problems with my closing this thread can be taken to a suggestions topic.

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

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