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Author Topic:   Bush considered restrictions to the first ammendment!
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 16 of 37 (501261)
03-05-2009 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jazzns
03-05-2009 12:31 PM


Re: The most infuriating thing...
. . . over 90% of the activist base . . .
If those large numbers are even partly true, how do you account for Pelosi being re-elected? She has steadfastly enabled Bush Corp. crimes throughout. She has certainly NOT defended the constitution like she pledged. Yet, she (like Schumer) was overwelmingly re-elected (in the very "liberal" state of CA too). Really, I have no idea how this happened. Can you or any one else explain this to me please? I am dumbfounded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jazzns, posted 03-05-2009 12:31 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 17 of 37 (501272)
03-05-2009 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by dronestar
03-05-2009 12:55 PM


Re: The most infuriating thing...
If those large numbers are even partly true, how do you account for
Pelosi being re-elected? She has steadfastly enabled Bush Corp. crimes
throughout. She has certainly NOT defended the constitution like she
pledged. Yet, she (like Schumer) was overwelmingly re-elected (in the
very "liberal" state of CA too). Really, I have no idea how this
happened. Can you or any one else explain this to me please? I am
dumbfounded.
The answer is quite simple. Our method of electing people sucks. Who were Pelosi, Schumer, etc supposed to be replaced with? Republicans? Even if that was possible in their districts based on demographics, I don't see how that would have changed the current situation at all.
What we need is instant runoff voting so that these people can get REAL primary challanges or so that people can vote for a 3rd party in an general election without "throwing away" their vote.
This will have numerous effects not the least of which will be to show these people in no uncertain terms how close to the edge they are to loosing their constituients. Right now the only thing they have are opinion polls which only means they have to play politics well enough just to not be AS BAD as their opposition. And given how bad Republicans are these days, thats a pretty darn low bar.
Toss in a robust public financing of elections and you will start to see the scale shift.
You also have to take into account that I said the activist base. Most people who are voting don't fall into that category but it is the folks who were hitting the pavement who made the Nov landslide possible. The tide is shifting a little bit and more attention is being paid to those folks because they are voting with their feet. Look no further than the guy (I can't remember his name) who ousted Leiberman in the '06 primary. When the people who do the work of running the politics get pissed off enough, they can impact the entrenched.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by dronestar, posted 03-05-2009 12:55 PM dronestar has replied

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 18 of 37 (501302)
03-05-2009 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jazzns
03-05-2009 1:55 PM


Re: The most infuriating thing...
Jazzns,
If you add the destabilizing effects and marginalizing bias of the corporate media, I agree with your answers.
However, specifically, the re-election of Pelosi still stands as an exception to the rule. Pelosi wasn't running against only Republicans Walsh and Berg. And, Pelosi's 71.56 percent of the vote, beat anti-war, anti-Bush Sheehan's 17.19 percent. That's a massacre.
I would have thought eight years of Bush's crimes and Pelosi's enabling would have caused an opposite outcome. And yet, the population OVERWELMINGLY re-elected Pelosi. Man, this sticks in my craw.
Perhaps the following actions will eventually ameliorate my feelings of injustice:
1. Sen. Patrick Leahy yesterday proposed a truth and reconciliation commission to investigate abuses during the Bush-Cheney Administration.
and . . .
2. Congressman Wexler added his name to cosponsor Chairman Conyers’ bill, HR104, which establishes a special commission to investigate Bush Administration abuses. This legislation would investigate the broad range of Bush Administration policies including the secret detaining of prisoners by the intelligence community, the use by US personal of so-called enhanced interrogation techniques that are not authorized by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, ghosting, extraordinary rendition, domestic warrantless electronic surveillance, and all other policies or issues that the established Commission deems essential and relevant.

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 19 of 37 (501353)
03-05-2009 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by dronestar
03-05-2009 3:05 PM


Re: The most infuriating thing...
However, specifically, the re-election of Pelosi still stands as an exception to the rule. Pelosi wasn't running against only Republicans Walsh and Berg. And, Pelosi's 71.56 percent of the vote, beat anti-war, anti-Bush Sheehan's 17.19 percent. That's a massacre.
I would have thought eight years of Bush's crimes and Pelosi's enabling would have caused an opposite outcome. And yet, the population OVERWELMINGLY re-elected Pelosi. Man, this sticks in my craw.
You know, perhaps her district just doesn't feel the same way about her as you do. Perhaps they don't think she's a Bush enabler, or maybe they just don't care. And yes, she was elected to the 8th district with 71.7% of the vote in 2008, but in 2006, she commanded 80.4, and 2004 she won with 83%. Her average is 81.53% of the vote. So her last election saw an erosion of 12% of her vote share average. She's also been there since 1992, and we all know the power of the incumbency (how exactly did Lieberman win as an independent?).

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FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 20 of 37 (501416)
03-06-2009 7:25 AM


To get somewhat back on topic
Here's another thing I find some what stunning about this situation. I heard on some radio show (I honestly cannot remember which) that militias in this Country saw an increase in their numbers as a result of the Obama Administration. These "militia newbies" were/are sooooooooo afraid that President Obama is going take away their guns that they felt the need to join a militia to prevent that from happening.
Yet, throughout the entire cluster fuck of the Bush administration you heard nothing...not a peep...from the assorted militia groups around this Country. As we now know, Bush was responsible for perhaps the most dangerous, anti-American, take away your guns, your right to privacy, you rights to a lawyer or to see a Judge, Administration in the history of this Country. And not a fucking peep from the militias. Golly, it's almost as if these idiots don't know WHY our forefathers wanted the people to have the right to bear arms. Maybe they should read the 2nd Amendment, since they obviously have no fucking idea what it was meant to do.
Our forefathers wanted militias as a mechanism for the people to protect themselves from, amongst other things, a tyrannical Government. What the hell are the assholes waiting for?
Seriously, where are these assholes now, when we could really them? Where are these defenders of the Constitution, now that we see how our Constitution was being shredded? For Christ’s sake, the Bush Administration claims in these memos that they had the right to us the U.S. Military against its own citizens!! And yet we still hear not a peep from militia groups. WTF?! Could it be that these militias have gone from true Patriots to nothing more than spineless fear mongering Republican hacks?
I mean, hey, I don’t expect to hear form Right Wing Conservative Republicans. We have seen time and time again that they will never speak poorly of Bush et al. They think he’s a god. But I am surprised (not really) that militia groups haven’t become extremely vociferous in their desire to see the Bush Administration investigated.
And not some stupid, waste of time, waste of money, watered down bullshit, hearing.
A Special Prosecutor, and nothing less, is neededand should be demanded by ALL in Congress. This shit (the contents of those memos) is unbelievable.

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-06-2009 8:41 AM FliesOnly has replied
 Message 23 by onifre, posted 03-06-2009 11:35 AM FliesOnly has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 37 (501427)
03-06-2009 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by FliesOnly
03-06-2009 7:25 AM


Re: To get somewhat back on topic
These "militia newbies" were/are sooooooooo afraid that President Obama is going take away their guns that they felt the need to join a militia to prevent that from happening.
Yet, throughout the entire cluster fuck of the Bush administration you heard nothing...not a peep...from the assorted militia groups around this Country. As we now know, Bush was responsible for perhaps the most dangerous, anti-American, take away your guns, your right to privacy, you rights to a lawyer or to see a Judge, Administration in the history of this Country. And not a fucking peep from the militias.
I think its because they don't feel imediatly threatened by it. The prolly feel something like: "meh, that's not going to happen to me"
Seriously, where are these assholes now, when we could really them? Where are these defenders of the Constitution, now that we see how our Constitution was being shredded? For Christ’s sake, the Bush Administration claims in these memos that they had the right to us the U.S. Military against its own citizens!! And yet we still hear not a peep from militia groups. WTF?! Could it be that these militias have gone from true Patriots to nothing more than spineless fear mongering Republican hacks?
I guess they don't have a big deal with the constitution is being shredded with regard to others, ('specially dem terrorists), but when they feel like its directly affecting them they get all up in arms.
I mean, hey, I don’t expect to hear form Right Wing Conservative Republicans. We have seen time and time again that they will never speak poorly of Bush et al. They think he’s a god.
Its no different than the other side.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by FliesOnly, posted 03-06-2009 7:25 AM FliesOnly has replied

Replies to this message:
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FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 22 of 37 (501454)
03-06-2009 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
03-06-2009 8:41 AM


Re: To get somewhat back on topic
Catholic Scientist writes:
I think its because they don't feel imediatly threatened by it. The prolly feel something like: "meh, that's not going to happen to me"
I agree...which kinda proves my point.
Catholic Scientist writes:
I guess they don't have a big deal with the constitution is being shredded with regard to others, ('specially dem terrorists), but when they feel like its directly affecting them they get all up in arms.
Agree...again...which again proves my point.
These so-called militias are pretty much nothing more than a bunch of gun freaks that have two primary goals. One, not to pay taxes and Two, to own any conceivable weapon they want. They could not care less about "why" they are a "militia". It's almost ironic, but more just a case of ignorance.
Catholic Scientist writes:
Its no different than the other side.
No, not really. I get tired of hearing this. Obama has been criticized quite a bit by those on the left. However, we have yet to read anything by those on the right, speaking out against Bush, and/or demanding a special prosecutor be appointed. Of course, these same people were all over a certain other President that happened to get himself a blow job. And here we have true, "dictatorship ideals"...and the silence is deafening.
What is your stance on this issue Catholic Scientist? Do you feel that a special prosecutor needs to be appointed to investigate these allegations? Do you feel that these memos spell out some of the scariest shit you've ever seen from a sitting administration? Or are you OK with what was said? Do you agree with the Bush administration that, for instance, using the U.S. Military against its own citizens is fine and dandy?

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 23 of 37 (501457)
03-06-2009 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by FliesOnly
03-06-2009 7:25 AM


Re: To get somewhat back on topic
Here's another thing I find some what stunning about this situation. I heard on some radio show (I honestly cannot remember which) that militias in this Country saw an increase in their numbers as a result of the Obama Administration.
I'd be skeptical of there actually being an increase, more so I think it's just hyped up radio BS just to instigate a conversation. But, obviously it's still possible.
Yet, throughout the entire cluster fuck of the Bush administration you heard nothing...not a peep...from the assorted militia groups around this Country. As we now know, Bush was responsible for perhaps the most dangerous, anti-American, take away your guns, your right to privacy, you rights to a lawyer or to see a Judge, Administration in the history of this Country. And not a fucking peep from the militias. Golly, it's almost as if these idiots don't know WHY our forefathers wanted the people to have the right to bear arms. Maybe they should read the 2nd Amendment, since they obviously have no fucking idea what it was meant to do.
Our forefathers wanted militias as a mechanism for the people to protect themselves from, amongst other things, a tyrannical Government. What the hell are the assholes waiting for?
No one is going to rise up against anything anymore. The powers that be have seen to it that the system is ran in a way that reduces descent. Namely, by forcing people into debt and into stressful, highly competative jobs which demands a lot of dedication and longer and longer hours. Furhter, a continous market of new shinny toys and gadgets is useful to provide superficial happyness, if only temporary, but more importantly it forces a further commitment to work more hours and fall deeper into debt.
We as a society are controled in this manner. No one is cracking a whip anymore but persuasive measures are taking to influence people into finding happyness and placing value in material things and not so much in their living conditions. We accept this. We are a product of it. And we maintain it by following it unconsciously.
Militias, at best, can only start minor problems for the government. But, since most people are busy working longer hours to pay for crap they don't need, the rebelous side of us has been subdued, controled and force to conform. This is applicable for any president from any party.
A Special Prosecutor, and nothing less, is neededand should be demanded by ALL in Congress. This shit (the contents of those memos) is unbelievable.
I agree, but it won't happen. The media, controled of course by the government, has not hyped up any Bush prosecution stories so Americans could careless - for the most part. What they have hyped up is the fact that the economy is falling apart, that we are all at risk of losing our jobs, that we will all lose our homes eventually and that the economy must by stimulated with a large infux of money by it's citizens. Basically, work harder, work longer hours and buy more shit. And so the wheels continue to roll, deeper and deeper into a controled state...
Edited by onifre, : spelling

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 37 (501467)
03-06-2009 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by FliesOnly
03-06-2009 11:29 AM


Re: To get somewhat back on topic
These so-called militias are pretty much nothing more than a bunch of gun freaks that have two primary goals.
I dunno, I wouldn't group them all together. There's probably a gradient of types of militias with various goals.
One, not to pay taxes
I don't know anything about that.
Two, to own any conceivable weapon they want.
Most of the gun freaks I know realize that Destructive Devices are distinguished from Firearms and do not have goals to own Destructive Devices but do have goals to have the right to any Firearm they want.
Catholic Scientist writes:
Its no different than the other side.
No, not really. I get tired of hearing this.
I meant the 'god' part. Obama is the biggest cult of personality I have seen in my lifetime.
What is your stance on this issue Catholic Scientist?
Apathy.
Do you feel that a special prosecutor needs to be appointed to investigate these allegations?
I have no idea.
Do you feel that these memos spell out some of the scariest shit you've ever seen from a sitting administration?
No. It doesn't scare me.
Or are you OK with what was said?
Hrm, I dunno. I can conceive a situation where the government would need to do what was said but I don't know if our current situation counts as one.
Do you agree with the Bush administration that, for instance, using the U.S. Military against its own citizens is fine and dandy?
Didn't that already happen in the Civil War?

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 25 of 37 (501567)
03-06-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
03-06-2009 11:57 AM


Re: To get somewhat back on topic
Obama is the biggest cult of personality I have seen in my lifetime
I presume you aren't old enough then to recall Mao Zedong, Stalin, or Kim Il-Sung.
What, exactly, makes you think Obama is a cult of personality? His high popularity rating? People obsessing over him?
Of course, from what I've been reading, Reagan is a cult of personality if Obama is one.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 26 of 37 (501604)
03-06-2009 11:05 PM


Perhaps the greatest enabler of all time, and definitely the biggest enabler in the Bush White House, is John Yoo. Almost every Bush "doctrine" that sought to take away our civil liberties was based upon legal opinions put forth by John Yoo. I watched an interview with John Yoo and it made my skin crawl. If you have ever wondered which lawyer all those jokes are based on look no further than Mr. Yoo.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 37 (501884)
03-08-2009 12:38 PM


Overthrowing the Constitution should not be considered treason, nor should attempting to modify/restrict it in any way.
The whole power of the document is that it was meant to be changed; entire sections discarded, even down to the last. It is this power that makes rule by the Constitution free and not dictatorial.
What good is such an amazing power if we attempt to round folk up and stick 'em jail if they even so much as contemplate exercising it?
Jon

You've been Gremled!

Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 28 of 37 (501886)
03-08-2009 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
03-08-2009 12:38 PM


Amending the Constitution, or proposing to amend it, or even proposing to toss it out and start over, are not treason. But the President completely ignoring it and acting directly in contradiction of it is treason.

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 29 of 37 (501888)
03-08-2009 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
03-08-2009 12:38 PM


so changing the constitution to allow cruel and unusual punishment, to allow the suppression of dissent, to force a single religion, or to eliminate any number of vital rights is all right? After all, you said changing the constitution in any way, changing any piece of it, should not be considered wrong.
Quite frankly, some changes are not good whatsoever, and those changes are those that seek to reduce or eliminate our inalienable rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 03-08-2009 12:38 PM Jon has replied

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 37 (501890)
03-08-2009 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by subbie
03-08-2009 12:48 PM


Nonsense, many of us do things everyday that fly in the face of the Constitution. Were the bootleggers of Prohibition hanged as traitors? I think not.
Going against the Constitution is also not treason, nor should it be.
Jon

You've been Gremled!

This message is a reply to:
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