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Author | Topic: How is Natural selection a mechanism? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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NoNukes writes: How do they think babies develop from a small clump of cells? Or, how do they think babies develop from a single cell? They claim that evolution of complex multicellular from single celled ancestors violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, yet those very same people started out as a single cell and developed into a complex multicellular human in just 9 months. If it happens over the span of 9 months all of the freaking time, then they really can't say that it couldn't have occurred over the span of billions of years.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4444 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Your in the zone so to speak. Zen driving. Focused attention on the important stuff. I try to imagine what it is like for other organisms that are aware of their surroundings. Are their thoughts all images? My thoughts are a combination of imagery and speech.
Much of our other decisions are mediated through our subconscious, endocrine system and biome. We can of course override their decisions but for the most part they just convince us it was OUR decision in the first place. Brain experiments have borne out that some decisions we think we are consciously making are already a second or so prior, generated and implemented in our subconscious. "Inception" anyone? The thinker behind the thought may just be a puppet. Frighting thought to be sure. Oh I by pass any angst created by this thought by just saying its all a symbiotic relationship that make me, ME. Don't forget bacterial biome that is also part of you. Do they have any control of our decisions? There are microbes that can infect insects and control their behavior to ensure maximum dispersal of their reproductive cells to infect more victims. Rabies comes to mind as a microbe that controls its host to infect new hosts. Natural selection in action.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1532 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined:
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quote: Absolutely. Do Gut Bacteria Rule Our Minds? | UC San Francisco And lets not forget about the Fungi that turns a species of ant into a zombie."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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When I was learning to drive my school driving instructor told me that a when you are a good driver your passengers will not remember your commute. But if you suck as a driver you they will remember every close call, jamming their foot on a imaginary brake etc.. ha ha. Friend: "when I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my dad ...... not yelling and screaming like his passengers ..." by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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AndrewPD Member (Idle past 2443 days) Posts: 133 From: Bristol Joined: |
Taq writes: If energy is added to a system then you can have entropy reversal (i.e. negative entropy). This is why we are able to use things like refrigerators which produce negative entropy. If refrigerators don't violate the laws of physics, then neither does life. A Refrigerator is intelligently designed. I don't see how the sun reduces entropy simply by giving off energy.Does it reduce entropy on Mars? There are complex processes like photosynthesis to utilise the suns energy. Also entropy under one description relates to degrees of freedom. This is the example given in a gas. So it is statistically unlikely that all the molecules in a gas will go into one corner of a jar because there are to many other possible arrangements. So entropy reflects the unlikelihood of certain formations or order when there is a huge range of other probabilistically available outcomes.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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A Refrigerator is intelligently designed. I don't see how the sun reduces entropy simply by giving off energy. You don't see... What you are saying is idiotic. Have you ever seen ice form outside of a refrigerator? Do you know where the energy comes from that drives the weather allowing the creation of snow flakes, sleet, hail and other forms of ice. How about the hot sun you think so little of? If there is energy input into a system, then it is possible to sort things into low entropy arrangements at the expense of gains in entropy in other systems or in other parts of the system. That is the role that the sun plays. More examples of systems in which entropy may decrease. The forming of crystals, the turning of digested food into living human cells. The development of embryos into human beings. The condensation of water vapor into dew or rain. Get a thermodynamics textbook and find out what the second law of thermodynamics really says. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2418 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined:
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The sun adds energy to the earths open system. Since the second law only applies to closed systems, it does not apply to earth. Why is that so hard to understand?
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined:
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AndrewPD writes: By naturally occurring phenomena. Humans. Not by Spooks. A Refrigerator is intelligently designed... Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined:
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A Creationist discovers the sun...Almost
“A creationist discovers the sun … almost” – Le Caf Wittypoots
quote: Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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JonF Member (Idle past 196 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
A Refrigerator is intelligently designed. I don't see how the sun reduces entropy simply by giving off energy. It doesn't. The energy given off by the sun has a temperature, that of the Sun, , and the Earth absorbs it. Since the average temperature of the Earth is not increasing (significantly) all that energy must be radiated back into space, but at a much lower temperature. That reduces entropy. on the Earth.
Does Life On Earth Violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics? is a pretty good resource.
Does it reduce entropy on Mars? Yes.
Also entropy under one description relates to degrees of freedom. This is the example given in a gas. So it is statistically unlikely that all the molecules in a gas will go into one corner of a jar because there are to many other possible arrangements. So entropy reflects the unlikelihood of certain formations or order when there is a huge range of other probabilistically available outcomes. The earth is not a gas, nor do the ideal gas laws cover this situation. The statistical view of entropy does cover this situation, but the Earth-Sun-Space system is so complicated we can't even think about beginning to try to apply it.
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JonF Member (Idle past 196 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
In the seventh message at Evidence, Gordon Davisson provides a good explanation:
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JonF Member (Idle past 196 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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The second law applies to all systems. The dS >= Q/T formulation applies only to closed systems.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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AndrewPD writes: A Refrigerator is intelligently designed. You can't intelligently design something to violate the laws of physics.
I don't see how the sun reduces entropy simply by giving off energy. Have you not heard of photosynthesis? The production of sugars from water and carbon dioxide requires negative entropy, and that is driven by the energy coming from the Sun.
Does it reduce entropy on Mars? Yes. The equator of Mars is warmer than the poles. Any time you have a continuous temperature gradient that is negative entropy, and in the case of the temperature distributions on Mars that negative entropy is driven by the Sun (as it is on Earth).
So it is statistically unlikely that all the molecules in a gas will go into one corner of a jar because there are to many other possible arrangements. So entropy reflects the unlikelihood of certain formations or order when there is a huge range of other probabilistically available outcomes. Take a look at high and low pressure systems in Earth's atmosphere. Those are driven by the Sun.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The second law applies to all systems. The dS >= Q/T formulation applies only to closed systems. Bingo... It is not just the scientifically untrained Creationists who bungle the 2nd law of thermodynamic. Here is something a PhD holding creationist had to say about the topic:
quote: This is Dr. Safarti making pretty much the same mistake that AndewPD makes when he says that refrigerators are intelligently designed machines that violate the 2nd law. The easy counter argument is pointing at ice forming without a refrigerator or any one of the other easily citable examples already presented in this thread. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2418 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined: |
The second law applies to all systems. The dS >= Q/T formulation applies only to closed systems. I admit ignorance of the equations behind the law, is that equation generally the one used to summarise the law? Taken from top google result, hyperphysics.edu;
Second Law of Thermodynamics: In any cyclic process the entropy will either increase or remain the same. Entropy: a state variable whose change is defined for a reversible process at T where Q is the heat absorbed. So where is my misunderstanding? I'm guessing 'cyclic' includes in/output systems and the major point of the second law is the conservation of energy regardless of the type of system? How does a refridgerator relate to any of this? If someone doesn't mind giving me a creationist double-speak-free summation? (Of the creationist argument) Edited by Riggamortis, : No reason given.
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