Apostasy from Christ' true teachings

Hey QuizSorry I was confused as the sentence did not make sense in it's context."those figures are bad but good for the example. more people more sins, thus more evil acts, plus now days evil acts are getting worse and worse not better and better.)"

1. The prophecy you cite in II Thessalonians two about apostacy which comes in latter days is suppose to be fulfilled before (a) the day of Christ and (b) our gathering to him, i.e. the resurrection and
gathering of the Christians to meet Christ in the air. Why would we be resurected when we are apostate?You're pulling it outa context so as to set the stage for Joe Smith to allegedly fix it as it appears. According to the text it is to set the stage for the man of sin/anti christ to appear on the world scene, not for some prophet to come and fix things. The "day of Christ" will fix the problem when he returns to earth to do just that. That is your intreptation.2. The prophecies you refer to all came from the Bible. If Joe Smith was a true prophet, what supernatural prophecy did he give the world to show he is a true prophet. About a third of his book, the Book of Mormon is Biblical plagerism and the rest is a lota irrevelant stuff about folks neither found in history or archeology anywhere.

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Read it again, I like your assertions though, they were exactly what I told my self. note: the united states is proof of the nephites as the book you call "his book" states the american indians came from the nephites.

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Quiz

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P.S. A prophecy, I know when I mention this prophecy you are going to go and look it up; but here it is. (note: at the time the church of LDS was being established in Missouri and at this time Joseph smith prophesied that the enemy of the Lord's church; that is; the people who would try to keep the work of the Lord from continueing(i.e the building up of zion is how J Smith refers to it) would be damned and would suffer largly from war.

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Shortly after this prophecy, the State of Missouri sufferd much from the Civil War, I would say they suffered more then all other states. I would say this is a fact. My friend tried to say this was because Missouri was a border state, but eatherway; as you put it; does not matter what the factors are; it only matters that the prophecy came to pass.
[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-30-2003]

1) Beggarly Elements (a biblical term) that I think implies 'reduced' elements (vs. ICs) in this context.2) Sodomy and Pride are both biblical "abominations". I won't dogmatically state one abomination is over another for I am guiltiest if I try to feign holiness (relgious pride). Albeit, Sodom had no religious pride nor holiness apparent in my understanding of Genesis.Yet Christ approximately stated: "If the works (by Christ) were seen by Sodom they would rise up in judgement against this generation" (i.e., of the proud Pharasees, etc.)

Quiz, I noticed that you forgot to respond to the second, and really more important half of my post. I'll repeat it for you here:

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Well, if one really wants to do a thorough investigation of the truth, particularly historical truth, one does not restrict one's materials only to one version or one source.

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In particular, what kind of critical analysis or exploration of evidence which may refute their own claims do you think your instructional materials published by believers is going to provide?

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None, correct?

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IOW, if you only seek confirmatory evidence and never seek disconfirming evidence, you are simply believing what you want to believe, not seeking the truth.It is a common human bias that, luckily for us, we know about and can counter if we are intellectually diligent.

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I wont ask for information to show him to be false, he meets the bibles requirments.

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So, you avoid investigation of evidence which might show him to be false? That is not seeking the truth.

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First having Christ as the savior, 2nd prophecies to come to pass, both have happend.

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Which prophecies have come to pass? What non-LDS, non-religious confirmatory evidence do you have to verify your claim?

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I will ask you to present to me his work to reflect falsehood as I really dont care about checking him out as I have already gone through all of his works.

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Yes, I know you have gone through all of his works, but have you looked for disconfirming evidence that might show him to be false?The people who recruited you into the LDS church are not very likely to show you any, now are they?Before I spend any time researching Smith and his claims, I first would like you to give me a few specific examples of what sorts of things you would accept as falsifications of Smith's claims. If you can't think of any, then you are simply a believer, and your claims that you believe because of X or Y are false; you believe because you simply choose to believe, not because of any evidence.

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I would need proof showing that the work of Joseph Smith is false. His prophecies to be false, etc.

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Since you are the one making the claim, it is you who needs to present your positive evidence and make your case.List some of these supposed fulfilled prophecies and what you would consider a falsification of each, and we will go from there.

Oh, and Quiz, I am still waiting for you over in the Evolution forum. I have begun a thread entitled "Quiz and Evolutionary Biology."I would very much like to discuss with you your reasons for rejecting the possibility of macroevolution.

I was not recruited but I recruited my self. I have subject J SMITH to the bible, take for example mohammed, he is false in my eyes because he does not say Jesus Christ is the son of god.Quiz[This message has been edited by Quiz, 11-13-2003]

Please apply the link in your replyQuiz

1) The Quran does cover Jesus. It differs with with modern Christianity over exactly what he taught and said, but so? So did the Gnostics, and there's no doubt that they were Christian.2) Since when are Baptists famous for being "critical thinkers"?3) "Jesus Christ lived right?" Well, they still looking for evidence... Stay tuned, but don't hold your breath too long. You'd think that the Romans, who kept meticulous records, would at least have *some* mention of him...------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

1,2 = not good.3, I will respond to this =
The romans do mention him and not only him but consistantly mention how they killed the Christians. I assert that the amount of people who lived shortly after Christ and dureing his time which became Christians, is evidence that he lived, for why become Chrstian to a legend that began 5 years before converting or even a few days before converting. I could see your point on his life being false if only a few people became belivers for it would explain the understanding "they would be crazy" but 90 thousand people or more becoming a beliver in Christ is more then a coincidence. "He lived."If not, That is like going to a court room and watching a case which 99% of the evidence supports the person as to being a killer but infact he didn't kill the person or did he?.Quiz[This message has been edited by Quiz, 11-13-2003]

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I can see why you are Athiest you are so picky you will wind up going backwards.

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Who says I'm an atheist?

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The romans do mention him

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Where?

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and not only him but consistantly mention how they killed the Christians.

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Yep, they killed and otherwise persecuted Christians. And when the Christians came to power, they took over the persecution of the non-ruling sects of Christians, such as the Gnostics.

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I assert that the amount of people who lived shortly after Christ and dureing his time which became Christians, is evidence that he lived, for why become Chrstian to a legend that began 5 years before converting or even a few days before converting. I could see your point on his life being false if only a few people became belivers for it would explain the understanding "they would be crazy" but 90 thousand people or more becoming a beliver in Christ is more then a coincidence.

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Ok. Then I will assert that the amount of people who lived shortly after Krishna and dureing his time which became Hindus, is evidence that he lived, for why become Hindu to a legend that began 5 years before converting or even a few days before converting. I could see your point on his life being false if only a few people became belivers for it would explain the understanding "they would be crazy" but 90 thousand people or more becoming a beliver in Krishna is more then a coincidence.What, don't like that argument turned back on you? Let's try another approach:I will assert that the amount of people who lived shortly after Atlantis and dureing its time which became believers in Atlantis, is evidence that it existed, for why become a believer in Atlantis to a legend that began 5 years before the story was written or even a few days before the story was written. I could see your point on its existance being false if only a few people became belivers for it would explain the understanding "they would be crazy" but 90 thousand people or more becoming a beliver in Atlantis is more then a coincidence.

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"He lived."If not, That is like going to a court room and watching a case which 99% of the evidence supports the person as to being a killer but infact he didn't kill the person or did he?.

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Ah. So, this 99% of evidence is "not a single roman record mentioning him, despite meticulous record keeping"?As a hypothetical person in this hypothetical courtroom, I say "Case dismissed."------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

I can only say I know nothing of hindu really, But if the case matches then I say he lived also. But I dont understand his case. The true question is, does he still live.Look Im done with this, assertion as I can see it is going no where. You wont accept my truth and I wont accept your truth, but if there was a way to merge our faiths and have them be one. Oh well untill next time kids..Quiz

Before you run, m'dear, care to address this:

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The romans do mention him

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Where?

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Why would we be resurected when we are apostate?

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According to the text, the apostacy is what paves the way for antichrist. Then comes the gathering to Christ and the day of Christ, referring to his return to earth. Apostacy does not mean all are apostate. According to Revelation 2 and 3 there will always be 'overcomers.'

I remember seeing it somewhere I dont remember where as it was before I became a Christian and ever since I became a Christian I have not cared so much about finding ways to prove if he lived as I thought what I read in a book at one point was sufficient. I believe it was just some writings from a roman soldier who lived at one time, NO, it was not Josephus. I dont remember who it was, Eusabies maybe.
Sorry. I will look for it. Can I email it to you?QuizP.S. No body has supplied anything more then just interpertation and the thread does not seem to be sticking to the original post. So I am closing this thread and eventually will move onto something else.Thanks for the input people. Later[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-31-2003]

I will have to check into that Buzsaw, thxQuiz[This message has been edited by Quiz, 11-13-2003]