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Author Topic:   Cartoons and common sense
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 259 (284424)
02-06-2006 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by iano
02-06-2006 1:23 PM


Oops -- now we're getting off-topic
Unfortunately, I have do not believe that there is an objective standard by which to judge moral decisions; if I were to assume that there were an objective standard, I have very little idea of what that standard is; and this doesn't have anything to do with God, since the existence of an objective standard does not imply the existence of a deity, nor does the existence of God imply that there is an objective standard.
Heh, I knew that this was what you were leading to, iano.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 77 of 259 (284426)
02-06-2006 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by robinrohan
02-06-2006 2:59 PM


Re: We Made It Up ... and so did they
Leftist protests during the 60s.
Could you be more specific, robin? It seems to me that 60s protests were mostly about the U.S. waging war on other nations--in some cases, a war that was illegal by U.S. law (e.g., incursions into Cambodia)--not about the beliefs of other nations or even the beliefs of other Americans.
I participated in many demonstrations during the sixties, and as I recall, most of the riotous actions were taken by the police.
(smilie repressed in your honor)

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 2:59 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2006 3:19 PM Omnivorous has replied
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 259 (284427)
02-06-2006 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Omnivorous
02-06-2006 3:12 PM


Re: We Made It Up ... and so did they
Could you be more specific, robin? It seems to me that 60s protests were mostly about the U.S. waging war on other nations--in some cases, a war that was illegal by U.S. law (e.g., incursions into Cambodia)--not about the beliefs of other nations or even the beliefs of other Americans.
I thought they were protesting against the beliefs of other Americans that we were right to be in Vietnam fighting Godless communism. Some of these protestors seemed to be relativists theoretically, as far as I can recall. I didn't participate in any protests. I was too busy with my studies and meditations and chasing girls.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Omnivorous, posted 02-06-2006 3:12 PM Omnivorous has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 79 of 259 (284428)
02-06-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Omnivorous
02-06-2006 3:12 PM


Leftest?
Frankly, you would be hard pressed to find a more conservative crowd that the hippies and almost all protesters during the 60's. They dressed alike, thought alike, all said the same things, listened to the same music, believed in core absolutes of morality such "all men are created equal" or "Justice for all" or "make love not war" (who was it that said turn the other cheek? ). They wanted smaller government and for the US to stop invading other nations. They favored fewer taxes, caring for each other, mutual civilian assistence in education, health care and resources.
The ony riotous actions I recall was when the leftest fascist dictators called out the storm troopers.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 80 of 259 (284430)
02-06-2006 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by robinrohan
02-06-2006 3:19 PM


Speech, Action, Belief
I thought they were protesting against the beliefs of other Americans that we were right to be in Vietnam fighting Godless communism.
True enough, I suppose, but I would say we were protesting the acts of unjust war by our government, not the belief in their correctness by other citizens.
The Muslim rioters insist that blasphemous speech is action; I suppose many of the faiths "of the Book" would assert that blasphemous belief is action as well. I find neither belief reasonable.

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 259 (284435)
02-06-2006 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
02-05-2006 2:08 AM


The rioting Muslims you see on the news are trying to influence the newspapers and demonstrate their own strength of faith. They must reply in a strong way.
Free speech means you can say what you want, but where is the responsibility and wisdom for publishing images that are meant to ridicule people? You should not assume that saying anything you want does not come without consequence if you insult Islam.
You have the right to go into Harlem and say what you want about black people. Or you can go into KKK and say some things about white people. However, you should not expect a letter to the editor in response by that community.
Not all Muslims are responding in violence, but your Western countries are uniting the Islamic world against you, even if it is a silent support in hidden ways.
I probably will get many responses. I can not answer many. I have not logged in for quite awhile. I logged in to see what people were writing on this forum. When I saw the first post of this topic, I had to respond.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 02-05-2006 2:08 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 02-06-2006 4:17 PM IANAT has not replied
 Message 84 by Chiroptera, posted 02-06-2006 4:46 PM IANAT has not replied
 Message 85 by Yaro, posted 02-06-2006 4:48 PM IANAT has replied
 Message 140 by sidelined, posted 02-08-2006 10:59 AM IANAT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 259 (284438)
02-06-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by IANAT
02-06-2006 4:01 PM


On Responses
Good to see you back again and hope you stop in often.
You should not assume that saying anything you want does not come without consequence if you insult Islam.
Insults never justify violence.
You have the right to go into Harlem and say what you want about black people. Or you can go into KKK and say some things about white people. However, you should not expect a letter to the editor in response by that community.
Yes, and in a civilized society, if those communities reacted violently, those people would be found, tried and if convicted, punished.
There is no way within a civilized society to justify violence in response to insult.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 259 (284442)
02-06-2006 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
02-06-2006 3:25 PM


Re: Leftest?
Frankly, you would be hard pressed to find a more conservative crowd that the hippies and almost all protesters during the 60's. They dressed alike, thought alike, all said the same things, listened to the same music, believed in core absolutes of morality such "all men are created equal" or "Justice for all" or "make love not war" (who was it that said turn the other cheek? ). They wanted smaller government and for the US to stop invading other nations. They favored fewer taxes, caring for each other, mutual civilian assistence in education, health care and resources.
Yes, But they SAID they were relativists--or at least some of them did. Anybody who gets morally pumped up is not acting like a relativist. I myself think that all moral systems are subjective, but I still get morally pumped up sometimes (mostly about private rather than political matters).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 02-06-2006 3:25 PM jar has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 259 (284443)
02-06-2006 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by IANAT
02-06-2006 4:01 PM


quote:
You should not assume that saying anything you want does not come without consequence if you insult Islam.
Quite true -- if one makes the choice to say something that someone else finds insulting (and just about anything will insult someone, I suppose), it would be prudent to expect that there may be retribution.
Of course, that applies anytime anyone may feel insulted, whether it is Muslims, vegetarians, white supremists, drug dealers, or pedophiles. So it may be prudent to make sure that what you say will not insult Muslims, vegetarians, white supremists, drug dealers, or pedophiles.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 85 of 259 (284445)
02-06-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by IANAT
02-06-2006 4:01 PM


Ya know, If allah really gave a rat's ass about some dumb cartoons, don't you think he could burn down his own embassy?
Radical islamists, and Islam in general, need to grow up. It's time to join the 21st century. Grow a sense of humor, a thicker skin, and stop taking any BS opportunity to blow something western up.
I'm not saying that's the entirety of islam, but when I see someone stand up for this kind of asinine behavior, or attempt to justify it, it makes me sick.
The world is a whole lot bigger than your silly little beliefs (not you specifically, but everyone in general, and islam in particular).
If god is real, I'm sure he can hold his own without a bunch of idiot zelots torching buildings and making women wear bee keeper suites (thx to Bill Mhar on that one).
This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-06-2006 04:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by IANAT, posted 02-06-2006 4:01 PM IANAT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 86 of 259 (284448)
02-06-2006 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
02-06-2006 4:17 PM


Re: On Responses
Insults never justify violence.
Is that an absolute (objective) moral rule? If so, where did it come from?
Yes, and in a civilized society, if those communities reacted violently, those people would be found, tried and if convicted, punished.
So what you are saying is that there is an objective rule that "civilized" societies do not regard emotional distress and attacks of a psychological nature as warranting action from the gov't? And that it will not take provocation into account in human behavior?
I guess I'm not seeing where "civilization" requires people to judge physical and psychological matters as separate and not protect or allow people to defend themselves against psychological attacks using physical means.
There is no way within a civilized society to justify violence in response to insult.
Couldn't one do this by viewing psychological harm as real and perhaps equal to physical injury? If one attacks you physically, you have a right to defend onesself and in some cases go on the offensive. The same could be true for psychological attacks.
I might add that we actually do allow for violence in response to insults. It just depends on the nature of the insult. Libel and slander are insults which we do allow punishment for. Its just that those insulted cannot directly inflict the retaliatory violence.
It should be pointed out that libel/slander is pretty much what muslim protesters are upset about.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 87 of 259 (284450)
02-06-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Silent H
02-06-2006 5:03 PM


Re: On Responses
I don't see how you could possibly make a case for psychological damage on this one. If they were 'psychologicaly' damaged by some dumb cartoons, in a country far FAR away from them, then they obviously have bigger issues.
Most countries in the 'civilized' world protect satire. Which is what a cartoon amounts to, a joke. All this proves is that islamists, and fundamentalist islamic nations, can't take a joke.
I think it's funny how some of the govts. involved petitioned the danish govt. to shutdown the newspaper in question. Goes to show the warped concept of freedom of speach and freedom of the press some of those regimes have.
This is all a display of ignorance at it's finest.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 88 of 259 (284451)
02-06-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Yaro
02-06-2006 4:48 PM


Ya know, If allah really gave a rat's ass about some dumb cartoons, don't you think he could burn down his own embassy?
Ahem... mohammed is not allah. They are objecting to the insulting depiction of an important person.
That said, if anyone burned down an embassy then technically allah did do it. Nothing happens without his will.
Radical islamists, and Islam in general, need to grow up. It's time to join the 21st century. Grow a sense of humor, a thicker skin, and stop taking any BS opportunity to blow something western up.
The 21st century? You mean the one where a religious state from ~2000 years ago must be impressed onto an indigenous population of muslims by force of arms because the God of extremist Jews and Xians said so?
Look at how much has been blown up in the MidEast by Xians within both the 20th and 21st century and it makes what "they" have blown up pale in comparison. It might also be noted that we (the west) empowered the religious fanatics over the moderates within Afghanistan, and helped moderates turn to extremism in Iran by cheating and alienating them.
I guess being blownup, shot at, disenfranchised, and impoverished left them with a thinner skin and thinner sense of humor.
I see someone stand up for this kind of asinine behavior, or attempt to justify it, it makes me sick.
As much as I was not happy seeing what was happening over these cartoons, and in fact still support their creation and publication, I am more dismayed by the behavior of supposedly rational people, betraying a bigotry and ignorance regarding what is happening and what it means about Islam or Islamic people.
This is simply an example of fanaticism that one can see anywhere in any culture, as long as you provide the right insult.
I'm sure he can hold his own without a bunch of idiot zelots torching buildings and making women wear bee keeper suites
Uh, what do bhurkas have to do with this? Does it make you feel good to beat up people over cultural differences?

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Yaro, posted 02-06-2006 4:48 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Yaro, posted 02-06-2006 7:03 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 89 of 259 (284454)
02-06-2006 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Yaro
02-06-2006 5:11 PM


Re: On Responses
I was discussing differences in cultural perspective.
Most countries in the 'civilized' world protect satire. Which is what a cartoon amounts to, a joke. All this proves is that islamists, and fundamentalist islamic nations, can't take a joke.
Hey, I am all for satire and want to live in a nation that protects satire. I'm just not going to pretend that people in another culture will have the same view point on satire, or that those with a different viewpoint on this matter are less "civilized".
I am pretty certain you can find satire that will rile up people to the same degree within other communities. As I have stated... and still no one has addressed... Xians within the west resorted to the same activities over a film that wasn't even meant to be offensive to Jesus.
Goes to show the warped concept of freedom of speach and freedom of the press some of those regimes have.
Warped? I'd say different. I do agree that any gov't which moves to censor the press over this is not operating with a concept of freedom of the press. I wouldn't want to live there.
This message has been edited by holmes, 02-06-2006 11:49 PM

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
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IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 259 (284455)
02-06-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Yaro
02-06-2006 4:48 PM


You totally misunderstand Islam.
The Quran is the equivalent of what you call law.
A Muslim's purpose in life if obedience to the law.
The cartoons violate what is written.
What you call violence is what some Muslims call justice.
Maybe in your terms, fire is an expression of free speech.
Yes, your picture offends me.
You are a child who shows no respect for others.
Is this your culture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Yaro, posted 02-06-2006 4:48 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
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