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Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Right Wing Cartoonist vs Reality | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tram law Member (Idle past 4725 days) Posts: 283 From: Weed, California, USA Joined: |
Rrhain writes: I realize it's been a month, but I've been busy. Rahvin writes:
quote: That may be what you think you're talking about, but that isn't what you're saying. You're trying to argue popularity makes right and it doesn't. Just because a bunch of people do something wrong doesn't make it less wrong.
quote: Except he is. You're equivocating on the word "exceptional." You are trying to pretend that we're talking about popularity rather than substance. The evil is "exceptional" due to its depravity and idiocy, not because it is rare. Just because two million people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing.
quote: Yes to both. You seem to think there is a dichotomy here and there isn't. If everybody in society is exceptionally evil, that doesn't make the evil any less exceptional. The popularity of an evil act does not change it in any way. It is still exceptionally evil. You are equivocating.
quote: And this is your second logical error. You are trying to play "a pox on both your houses" when your own investigation into the subject matter shows that the two parties were nowhere near the same. The Republicans voted in lock-step. The Democrats had much greater diversity. But by your logic, the mere fact that there were a significant number of Democrats who supported the war makes them equivalent to the Republicans. That simply isn't true.
quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? A group of people unified in support of an exceptionally evil act is equivalent to a group of people who are only marginally in support of that act? Do you really think things would have been the same had there been any real debate on the subject? You do recall that there were no guests against the war on any of the Sunday talk shows, yes? That nobody ever got to hear any significant pushback about the "intelligence", yes? You do recall that Bush tried to talk about the uranium back in his speech in October before the State of the Union but that it got pulled out because it couldn't be verified...only to have it show up in the State of the Union despite being still unverified, yes? How many people know that on the day Bush announced hostilities in Iraq, the inspectors were destroying some missiles due to their range being beyond treaty specs and were literally begging Bush to stop and let them do their job? Do you really think that if the Republicans were more like the Democrats, it still would have been inevitable that we would have gone to war in Iraq?
quote: See, there's that "pox on both your houses" act again. And again, you seem to forget that we're not talking about the Democrats. We're talking about the Republicans. You're the one who talked about "moderate" Republicans. Well...where are they? Why is it Republicans routinely vote en masse? We can get to the Democrats and their inabilities in another thread. This is solely about the Republicans. Give us a name. Name a single "moderate" Republican. Olympia Snowe? Susan Collins? Have you seen their voting records? Snowe killed healthcare. We need a name. You claim there are "moderate" Republicans. Name one. Just one. How about a wikipedia article for you? But note, it calls moderate Republicans "Rockefeller Republicans". Rockefeller Republican - Wikipedia Edit: This following statement is a general statement. I'm not really too fond of political editorial cartoons. They tend to be extremely partisan biased. Edited by Tram law, : added general statement
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Worse than Watergate - Wikipedia
quote: The question is, did the George W. Bush administration satisfy the Congress authorization constraints? Although, in hindsight, it was an error to give GWB and company any sort of authorization set up, available to be abused. The Afghanistan war was a BIG mistake. The Iraq war was malicious stupidity. Too bad we can't use the old evaluation of a mediocre Presidency for Shrub's legacy - "At least he didn't start any wars". Moose
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Tram law responds to me:
quote: Wikipedia is not a source. Try again. Why? Take a look at their claim:
Yet the Rockefeller Republican label is sometimes applied to such modern-day politicians as Senators Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins of Maine. As I pointed out, neither Snowe nor Collins are moderates. They are staunchly conservative. Take a look at their voting records. Snowe killed healthcare reform. They talk like they aren't lock-step conservatives, but their rhetoric is immaterial. The only thing of any importance is their voting record and they are solid conservatives. Same for the rest of them. Arlen Specter? You do recall that he left the Democratic party for the Republicans and the only reason he left the Republican party is because he wasn't right-wing enough and new he would never survive a primary. The political system in the US has shifted further and further to the right since the 80s. Reagan couldn't get elected as a Republican these days. Hell, Nixon couldn't get elected as a Republican. Nixon indexed Social Security to inflation and instituted SSI. He created the EPA and OSHA. Those programs could never get passed today with current Republicans. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
...neither Snowe nor Collins are moderates. They are staunchly conservative. Take a look at their voting records. OK, lets. Below is a link to the voting records of all 100 senators as determined by the American Conservative Union. They range from a low near 0 for liberal senators to a high of near 100 for conservative senators. Snowe and Collins average near 50. Hardly staunch conservatives. Perhaps you are so far to the left that everything looks conservative to you? Page not found | CPAC
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Pardon my ignorance of your system but what exactly is your link showing?
I cannot make out what was being voted on, in this voting record you have linked to.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Straggler writes:
You don't need to know what was being voted on. Pardon my ignorance of your system but what exactly is your link showing? I cannot make out what was being voted on, in this voting record you have linked to. What is important, and what you are ignoring, is that a conservative organization has established a ranking system that shows that those two senators are not arch conservatives, as you have claimed. They are about the middle of the road on their scale. You were wrong. Don't dig the hole any deeper.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
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What is important, and what you are ignoring, is that a conservative organization has established a ranking system that shows that those two senators are not arch conservatives, as you have claimed. They are about the middle of the road on their scale. Middle of the road according to a very conservative organization? You do not see the ridiculousness of your assertion? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2126 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Theodoric writes: What is important, and what you are ignoring, is that a conservative organization has established a ranking system that shows that those two senators are not arch conservatives, as you have claimed. They are about the middle of the road on their scale. Middle of the road according to a very conservative organization? You do not see the ridiculousness of your assertion? Look their records up on any scale you like. And perhaps you could include with your response some evidence (as I have), not just your unsupported opinion.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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This is apparently the 25 issues of the results linked to in message 79.
Moose Added by edit: Snowe and Collins of Maine voted against the "conservative ideal" on 2,4,12,16,18,22,24, and 25:
quote: One of them, but not both voted against on 5 and 13:
quote: They both voted for the conservative line on 1,3,6,7,8,9,10,11,14,15,17,19,20,21, and 23:
quote: The extra links showed up when I copy/pasted the individual items; apparently they were hidden text as I don't see them at the source. Oddly, when I tried copy/pasting 1-25 all at once, the links didn't show up. I didn't check out any of those links. Added by edit #2: OK, all those extra links just go back to the source page. Apparently they had intended to add supplementary information but didn't. Added by edit #3: By the supplied ratings, the 4 most conservative Democrats were Arkansas: Lincoln 46%, Prior 29%; Indiana: Bayh 39%; Nebraska: Ben Nelson 48%; Wisconsin: Feingold 24% (???). Snowe and Collins of Maine were both at 64% (a ways above 50%). Added by edit #4, comparing Feingold to Snowe/Collins: Feingold voted the conservative line on 1,4,9,10,12, and 21.Snowe and Collins voted the conservative line on 1,9,10, and 21. Snowe and Collins voted against the conservative line on 4 and 12. Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above. Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above #2. Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above #3 - Info on the 4 "conservative" Democrats. Edited by Minnemooseus, : Add Ben Nelson data to edit 3 info. Edited by Minnemooseus, : See above #4 - The Feingold position compared to Snowe/Collins. Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
And perhaps you could include with your response some evidence (as I have), not just your unsupported opinion.
You do realize that Obama was once designated the most liberal Senator. This is a snapshot of 25 votes. The current crop of conservatives may consider them middle of the road, but to anyone not hard line conservative, they are very conservative. The current GOP would vilify Nixon and Reagan as socialists. Compare Nixon to Obama and you will find them very close on the right/left spectrum. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Coyote writes: You were wrong. Don't dig the hole any deeper. I think you must be confusing me with someone else as my request for clarification was my first post in this thread. Anyway Moose has cleared things up in Message 84 Coyote writes: What is important, and what you are ignoring, is that a conservative organization has established a ranking system that shows that those two senators are not arch conservatives, as you have claimed. I am not going to comment or reply beyond this - But it seems worth pointing out that classifying things as 'conservative' or otherwise on the basis of a scale constructed by arch-conservatives may not be the most objective basis for such a classification. I am sure that on the Fidel-Castro political scale we are all (including Theoderic) rabid right wing capitalist lunatics.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
As I pointed out, neither Snowe nor Collins are moderates. They are staunchly conservative. Take a look at their voting records. I checked Snowe out here. It concludes that
quote: Collins looks to have a similar record. I'm not sure how you are seeing any 'lockstep' out of her voting record. APHA rates her at 38% (how often she votes the way the organisation would prefer) which is fairly high for a Republican (who tend to be around 10-20% mark from a brief scan of the data), I only saw one that was higher (Collins equals it). That said, I'm not American Politics expert and maybe I've got something wrong or maybe you are weighting the voting record using some unstated metric. For instance, she may have voted for DOMA but then most Dem Senators did too so from a relative point of view she wasn't just being lockstep with Republicans but the whole Senate. On the other hand, she did vote against a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, unlike many Republicans. She is also voted liberally for anti-homophobia laws, in contrast to many of her fellow Republicans. Is this record outweighed entirely by her vote regarding recent healthcare reform? And her other healthcare votes? Certainly they lean towards her party, but she votes contra-Republican in a fair number of places.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.1 |
I am not going to comment or reply beyond this - But it seems worth pointing out that classifying things as 'conservative' or otherwise on the basis of a scale constructed by arch-conservatives may not be the most objective basis for such a classification. The entire "right" vs "left" comparison is subjective from the start - I don't think you can find an objective basis for such assessments. How does one even determine whether an issue is "right" or "left" in the first place? Majority support from Republicans or Democrats, respectively? I can really only point to a few hot-button issues like abortion where the contrast would be clear. Rrhain would likely bring up things like the USA PATRIOT Act, but the fact is that abominable set of legislation works counter to the traditional conservative value of "small government." The values trumpeted in front of the media are frequently not at all the reality behind legislation.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Coyote responds to me:
quote: And we trust them why? You do recall that the ACU was involved in a blackmail scandal involving FedEx, yes? As is typical, such surveys distort the concept of "conservative" and "liberal" in order to ensure that whoever the target-du-jour is, they can be described as the "most liberal" or "most conservative" as required.
quote: Perhaps. Perhaps the opposite is also true: You are so far to the right that everything looks liberal to you. I should point out that the current conservative regime has been screaming "SOCIALISM" at the mere suggestion that we return the tax rates back to what Reagan had. So if Reagan is a socialist under current conservative standards, then I don't think I can trust them when they claim Snowe and Collins are "moderate." Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Modulous responds to me:
quote: By looking at her actual voting record, not what conservative organizations would say.
quote: By actual votes on things. The problem with using lobbying groups claims about voting records is that they routinely alter their metrics so that whoever is the target-du-jour can be declared the "most liberal" or "most conservative" as required.
quote: Irrelevant. You're looking at it from the wrong direction: Yes, most Democratic members of Congress (both House and Senate) voted for DOMA. But we're not talking about the Democrats. We're talking about the Republicans. Any attempts to say, "But the Democrats do it, too!" is naught but distraction. Question: How many Republicans voted against DOMA. Hint: How many gay Republicans were there in Congress at the time?
quote: You mean she voted against an amendment that would never pass in the first place. Real courage there.
quote: Oh really? She voted against DADT repeal saying it needed to be studied more. It was only after it was a done deal did she finally flip.
quote: No, she doesn't. She's gone along with her party 85% of the time in the last session. And most of the times she didn't, it was on procedural issues. How does that make her "moderate"? Ethanol subsidies, budget, health care, DREAM act, Bush tax cut extensions, warrantless wiretapping of Americans, immigration reform, Iraq and Afghanistan wars, estate tax, Patriot Act, bankruptcy, class-action lawsuits, Alito, Roberts, Bolton, she's with them all the way. Now, she did go against the party with regard to free trade, marriage equality, S-CHIP, FDA, Lily Ledbetter, START, and the final DADT, but that is hardly proof that she's a moderate or commonly goes against her party. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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