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Author Topic:   Who should we hate?
Rahvin
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Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.1


(1)
Message 1 of 107 (583124)
09-24-2010 5:50 PM


I'd like to discuss the various forms of tribalism (racism, religion-ism, nationalism, etc) and the effects of confirmation bias and modern media availability in forming the perceptions that affect them.
In particular, I'd like to discuss the growing issue of public opinion in the Western world of Muslims, and public opinion in predominantly Muslim nations of Western nations.
Coyote recently said the following in the thread, Ground Zero Mosque - Tolerance, Racism or Comedy?
The point is that Muslims in many areas of the world are the least tolerant folks around, yet here they demand that we be tolerant.
Some folks get fed up with that.
Here's a recent example: Taliban cuts off both feet of actress who was to star in Afghanistan film (New York Times, registration required).
Additional examples are not hard to find.
I'm not intending to single Coyote out here - his comment is simply a recent version of similar sentiments echoed by many both here and in the larger real world, and in fact his comment is relatively very mild.
It does, however, clearly illustrate the phenomenon I'd like to discuss: the generalization of responsibility for an entire population.
Coyote expresses that he is getting "fed up" with Muslims, and uses the example of the Taliban's use of amputation as a way to terrorize a population into compliance (a story that has now actually been retracted by the NY Times, as shown here).
My question is simply this: why do all Muslims, or even most, bear responsibility for this or other crimes of brutality and terror? Why should Coyote be fed up with Muslims in general, as opposed to directing his anger only at those specific individuals within the Muslim community who support and commit such actions?
We are bombarded on a daily basis with news from around the world. Modern telecommunications technology has allowed for the formation of multiple 24-hour news networks and near-instant access to information. On an almost daily basis, this coverage tends to include stories of hideous barbarism in places like Afghanistan, or terror attacks (both successful and failed) around the world perpetrated largely by Muslims. We hear about Saudi Arabian courts who consider sentencing people to be paralyzed, or Iranian women who face such penalties as whipping followed by being stoned to death for crimes where their guilt appears dubious to Westerners and which seem monstrously severe and inhumane even were their guilt certain. Fatwas are issue for a man whose "crime" consisted of simply drawing a cartoon.
These are obviously atrocities. Very few people would even think about disagreeing with that simple analysis.
But should we be "fed up" with Muslims?
Confirmation bias rises when we seek confirmation of what we imagine to be true without looking for any evidence to the contrary. My belief is that modern media, being driven primarily by ratings and the fact that stories of emotional impact tend to increase the public's interest in a story, reports primarily those cases where some form of extreme brutality is being committed...and that we, the viewers, fall into a cycle of believing Islam to be utterly barbaric, a belief which is then confirmed by more news stories of further atrocities, and so on.
We even see the effects of confirmation bias when people use the Koran as evidence that Islam itself is a violent and abhorrent religion, and thus all Muslims are "that way," as if other holy books like the Bible didn't contain violent and abhorrent instructions themselves. If Christians disavow slavery, stoning children, executing homosexuals and witches, cutting unborn babies from their mother's dying wombs to smash them on rocks, and all of the other evil barbaric garbage contained in the Bible and specifically instructed by God just like in the Koran, then why can Muslims not possess a more modern form of ethics than their holy book's authors, just like their Christian cousins? Yet the cycle of confirmation bias continues - Muslims are instructed to kill infidels in the Koran, and this confirms again the suspicion over all Muslims and perpetuates the same cycle that derives from the media.
This cycle eventually even gives rise to outright falsehoods, things that are simply made up with zero basis in truth - like the assertion that Barack Obama is actually a secret Muslim who got elected to sabotage America - a view held in great esteem by Buzsaw and many others beyond the bounds of this forum; the last statistic I saw showed a disturbingly large percentage of Americans suspect that our President may be a Muslim simply because of his name. More disturbingly, they think that if Islam were his religion of choice it would somehow by default make him some sort of political terrorist, seeking to destroy America from within. Pay no attention to the actual Muslim legislators even now on Capitol Hill, who by all appearances are no more corrupt or evil than any other Congress-critter (which admittedly is a rather low bar to set).
What about the Muslims who do not think that amputation is an appropriate form of punishment? What about the Iranians who continue to protest at great risk and with great difficulty against their oppressive government over what they believe to have been rigged elections? What about Muslims who flee to America or Europe to escape the violent and abhorrent factions who gain power in their home countries? When we see an American flag being burned by Muslim protesters in Iran, what actual percentage of Muslims actually agree with that sentiment, and perhaps just as importantly, why? Is it wrong for a group of Iranian Muslims to be angry about well-known and verified American interference in their domestic affairs and politics? Is it wrong for a group of Iraqi Muslims to be upset that the American invasion cut off public services like power and water and resulted in a minor civil war that has still not ended, seven years later? Must Muslims either love America with their whole hearts, or be terrorists in our eyes?
What about Muslims who do speak out against terrorism and Sharia law, even when speaking out carries the risk of making themselves the next victim?
Who should be the targets of our anger? I believe we should be angry at the officials in power who perpetrate these "judgments." We should be angry at al-Qaeda. We should be angry at those individuals who perpetrate "honor killings." We should not be angry at Muslims as a whole. Our view of the Muslim world is horribly one-sided, where atrocities are emphasized and reported almost daily, while stories of decent Muslims are rare. We have literally no statistical base from which to draw such conclusions as "most Muslims want to kill non-Muslims," or "most Muslims support al-Qaeda." Just as I don;t bear responsibility for the actions of my neighbor, and neither am I required to publicly disavow each and every negative action he might take, so too are Muslims not responsible for the actions of their neighbors.
Muslims, of course, are just the modern version of our cultural boogeyman. Historically in America, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, homosexuals, communists, Germans, Native Americans, Atheists, Jews, and others have occupied the same role; the difference is only that modern media access seems to simultaneously strengthen the effect and provide an outlet to speak out against it.
Shouldn't we stop the cycle of irrational confirmation bias, and actively seek those Muslims who might be our friends rather than suspecting all Muslims of secretly harboring a deep religious desire to kill us all? Should we be "fed up" with Muslims? Or should we be angry only with those who have specifically committed the atrocities that have earned out collective ire?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by Dogmafood, posted 09-25-2010 10:37 AM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 9 by onifre, posted 09-25-2010 3:11 PM Rahvin has not replied
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Admin
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Message 2 of 107 (583159)
09-25-2010 6:39 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Who should we hate? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
frako
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 3 of 107 (583162)
09-25-2010 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
09-24-2010 5:50 PM


Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering
even though it's from star wars it is true
and it is not good for your body to go one hating stuff and people

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


(1)
Message 4 of 107 (583164)
09-25-2010 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
09-24-2010 5:50 PM


A completely empty post
*enthusiastic applause*

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Omnivorous
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Posts: 3983
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 5 of 107 (583171)
09-25-2010 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
09-24-2010 5:50 PM


God, Guns, Gays...and Ragheads
Often thought, Rahvin, but rarely so well expressed.
We harbor enough of this nativist xenophobia at baseline to account for some of the anger and hatred we see, but you have to look at who is fanning the flames to explain it all.
Politicians--predominantly right-wing/conservative/GOP politicians--are cynically exciting and exploiting one of humanity's worst tendencies for political gain. The damage to our national identity, to our national security, and to our common humanity is a small price, in their eyes, to pay for political power. Far too many Christians jump on the hate wagon, eager to brand Islam as a satanic faith while they lust for a bloodletting that contradicts the tenets of their own faith. At a time when we need all the allies of good will we can find, the haters seem intent on confirming the worst fears of more than a billion Muslims worldwide.
Even Bush had the sense to admit that his "Bring it on!" cowboy bravado was a serious mistake--since welcoming a confrontation with Islam, "bringing it on"--meant thousands of lost American lives, and tens of thousands of civilian lives in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Muslims fit nicely into the traditional God, Gays, and Guns election formula of the American right: different religion, ostensibly ethnically identifiable, different cultural practices--a set from which a small subset attacked American targets.
What demagogue could wish for a better devil?
Ultimately, though, people like to hate; the exhilirating clarity of absolute hatred is like a drug. We are, unfortunately, a nation of hate and anger addicts, and the pushers are just giving us what we want; the same drug is being pushed to Muslims worldwide.
I hope voices of reason like yours can help; otherwise, the Hate Gods will destroy us.

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 369 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 6 of 107 (583196)
09-25-2010 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
09-24-2010 5:50 PM


We should hate this guy
There are only 2 methods for controlling another person. Love and fear. We should hate that part of ourselves that seeks to control others and we should hate it when we see it in others. The caveat is that we should be sure that we actually see it.
I think that there is some legitimacy in guilt by association. If you wear a t-shirt with an image of Osama Bin Laden can I not assume that you would like to convert me or kill me? If you wear a shirt with an image of Mr Phelps can I not assume that you are a bigot with delusions of superiority?

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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 822 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 7 of 107 (583197)
09-25-2010 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dogmafood
09-25-2010 10:37 AM


Re: We should hate this guy
If you wear a t-shirt with an image of Osama Bin Laden can I not assume that you would like to convert me or kill me? If you wear a shirt with an image of Mr Phelps can I not assume that you are a bigot with delusions of superiority?
But both of those instances identify a person is associating his/her self with an ideology. A prerequisite for membership into Westboro IS to be a bigot. A prerequisite into Al-Qaeda IS a disdain for western nations. These folks are not representative of their particular larger group: christianity or islam.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 8 of 107 (583214)
09-25-2010 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dogmafood
09-25-2010 10:37 AM


Re: We should hate this guy
Dogmafood writes:
If you wear a t-shirt with an image of Osama Bin Laden can I not assume that you would like to convert me or kill me?
I saw an aboriginal woman once who was wearing a sweatshirt with an image of Sitting Bull and the caption, "My heroes have always killed cowboys." I didn't assume that she wanted to kill me. I assumed that she was just expressing a different point of view.
Somebody who has a different opinion of Bin Laden than you do might not want to kill you either.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2971 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 9 of 107 (583232)
09-25-2010 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
09-24-2010 5:50 PM


Sugar and spice and everything nice
My belief is that modern media, being driven primarily by ratings and the fact that stories of emotional impact tend to increase the public's interest in a story, reports primarily those cases where some form of extreme brutality is being committed...and that we, the viewers, fall into a cycle of believing Islam to be utterly barbaric, a belief which is then confirmed by more news stories of further atrocities, and so on.
I don't doubt that ratings are part of the reason, by there definitely is a bigger agenda connected with demonizing the Middle East. I don't think it's a conscious, collective agenda posed by a small few, I think it's the agenda of many that tend to seek out a fall of the MIddle East for many different reasons.
It's similar to what is done with black and hispanic neighborhoods, where there is a diminished police force, no county funding, no help for the community and a continuous media display of violence. These neighborhoods then become a target of investors with money who seek to bring up development in poor areas, to then ship out the poor to another area that is needed to depreciate in value. Once the property is worthless, and bought at low low cost, the neighborhood is then revamped and those who own the properties make out very well.
I suspect something along this way of thinking is currently going on in the Middle East. I don't however think it is only a US driven agenda, I think lots of countries seek the riches of the MIddle East and its in their best interest to keep this area war-torn until it loses all value.
Who should be the targets of our anger?
I think this is a futile attempt. Anger is already an irrational way of expressing emotions so to hope that someone will logically transfer it to the appropriate party seems like a lot of inexperience talking. No offence. Anger is violent, irrational and illogical, it is pointless to try and redirect it.
Or should we be angry only with those who have specifically committed the atrocities that have earned out collective ire?
It's not easy to separate the person from their group which they too, no matter how much they may not want to, represent. All Christians are represented when one asshole burns a Koran. Likewise all Muslims are represented when a suicide bomber attacks a crowd. I don't think that fits a confirmation bias so much as it's just the way things are associated.
I don't think the right course of action is for the masses to redirect their anger, I think the Muslims themselves need to take control of their own religion and show just how intolerant of fundamentalism they are. You may say, "Well they can't because of their leaders, who are a small few but control the whole region." Well, that's their fucking problem. If a small few can control the worlds opinion of your entire 1 billion plus members, then maybe they ARE the rightful representatives.
If Muslims want a different opinion of themselves then maybe they should seek that out for themselves. I don't think it's our problem. We get angry, and we will continue to get angry irrationally when violent atrocities happen. Unfortunately that whole religion will get implemented in whatever just happened, not because of confirmation bias, but because in a narrow way, that one atrocity does represent them as a whole.
Obama represents the whole of America because the majority voted for him. If we get bombed because of his actions, that's on us. We are responsible for who we elect. We are also responsible for those we allow to do whatever they want without accountability. Likewise, Muslims are responsible for their representatives too. If their representatives are fundamentalist who don't represent the actual opinions of the whole community, well then do away with that person, because they are fucking things up for you.
Remember the US put the Bin Ladin in Afghanistan, they also supported Saddam, and many other violent dictators. The US may have an agenda to destroy the Middle East from within, maybe. But that shouldn't stop Muslims from taking back their religion, if it is in fact poorly represented by fundamentalist.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 10 of 107 (583252)
09-25-2010 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rahvin
09-24-2010 5:50 PM


Understanding Islam
Rahvin writes:
On an almost daily basis, this coverage tends to include stories of hideous barbarism in places like Afghanistan, or terror attacks (both successful and failed) around the world perpetrated largely by Muslims. We hear about Saudi Arabian courts who consider sentencing people to be paralyzed, or Iranian women who face such penalties as whipping followed by being stoned to death for crimes where their guilt appears dubious to Westerners and which seem monstrously severe and inhumane even were their guilt certain. Fatwas are issue for a man whose "crime" consisted of simply drawing a cartoon.
These are obviously atrocities. Very few people would even think about disagreeing with that simple analysis.
It is simple. The greatest percentage, by far, of terrorist attacks and deaths thereby originate from Islamic fundamentalists who adhere the closest to Islam so called holy books. Go figure.
The Quran, the Hadith and the Sunnahs, are the three most important Quranic legal and religious authorities.. The fundamentalists do what the writers of decreed, Mohammed and his apostles taught and enforced by the sword these decrees when they were alive. Good Muslims do as their founders practiced and advocated.
Rahvin writes:
But should we be "fed up" with Muslims?
No. We should be apprised on Islamic law and doctrine so as to be aware that Mohammed and his apostles advocated the overthrow of, not just his world domain, but the entire world by all necessary means including the sword. He/they have declared war on the planet until all infidels come under the totalitarian domination of Islam. Islam is not just a religion. It is a geopolitical theocracy calling for the subjection or conversion of all infidels/non-Muslims on the planet.
We should become apprised on the Jihadistic global conspiracy of Mohammed, author of the Quran and prophet of the religion, Mohammedan's confidents, the earliest apostles who wrote and enforced fatwas ( a legal opinion or decree handed down by an Islamic religious leader; Merriam Webster), Shariah law, etc.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 107 (583253)
09-25-2010 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Buzsaw
09-25-2010 6:31 PM


Re: Understanding Islam
We should be apprised on Islamic law and doctrine so as to be aware that Mohammed and his apostles advocated the overthrow of, not just his world domain, but the entire world by all necessary means including the sword.
Nonsense. Once again you are simply making unsupported assertions, using innuendo and repeating falsehoods.
He/they have declared war on the planet until all infidels come under the totalitarian domination of Islam. Islam is not just a religion. It is a geopolitical theocracy calling for the subjection or conversion of all infidels/non-Muslims on the planet.
Nonsense, the only people that have done that or even could do that is the Fundamentalist Christians that believe the End Times nonsense in Revelations is still in the future and not just more failed prophecy.
Any chance you are actually going to provide support for this assertion or is it like your claimed fulfilled prophecy, just assertion with no facts to back it up?
It is not Islam we should fear but rather those Christians that look forward to Armageddon.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Son, posted 09-25-2010 6:49 PM jar has replied
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 09-25-2010 8:58 PM jar has replied

  
Son
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 12 of 107 (583254)
09-25-2010 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
09-25-2010 6:40 PM


Re: Understanding Islam
Actually both Fundamentalists (christians and muslims) should be feared. They're both as dangerous. I remember for example, (it was on an amazon forum) a fundamentalist christian advocating putting homosexuals in concentration camps (or use frontal lobotomy to "fix" them). The only reason the fundie christians don't appear to be nearly as bad as the Taliban is that they don't have the possibility to impose their ideology yet. But I agree with the rest of the threads, most religious people pick and choose what they obey in their sacred texts, so they should be solely judged on their own actions, not on what is written in their book.

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 Message 11 by jar, posted 09-25-2010 6:40 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 107 (583255)
09-25-2010 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Son
09-25-2010 6:49 PM


who is a threat
The biggest difference I can see is that it is only the US that really has the capability to seriously bring about Armageddon. The Islamic world can be an annoyance, cause tragedies, kill a few people but nobody else does mayhem and violence on the scale of the US. We kill bettern just about anyone in the history of the world.
The other thing is that far too often people that make claims such as those outlined in Buz's post do just as he does with the Bible; not really read it and instead just pull pieces parts out of context that he thinks supports his position. I seriously doubt that Buz has even actually read either the Qur'an or the Bible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 15 by Coyote, posted 09-25-2010 7:24 PM jar has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 14 of 107 (583256)
09-25-2010 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
09-25-2010 7:05 PM


Re: who is a threat
but nobody else does mayhem and violence on the scale of the US. We kill bettern just about anyone in the history of the world.
Can you back this up with numbers?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2126 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 15 of 107 (583257)
09-25-2010 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
09-25-2010 7:05 PM


Re: who is a threat
Here are some numbers:
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000
Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1932-39) 23,000,000 (the purges plus Ukraine's famine)
Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)
Leopold II of Belgium (Congo, 1886-1908) 8,000,000
Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians in WWII)
Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915-20) 1,200,000 Armenians (1915) + 350,000 Greek Pontians and 480,000 Anatolian Greeks (1916-22) + 500,000 Assyrians (1915-20)
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000
Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000
Yakubu Gowon (Biafra, 1967-1970) 1,000,000
Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) 900,000
Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) 800,000
Suharto (East Timor, West Papua, Communists, 1966-98) 800,000
Saddam Hussein (Iran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88) 600,000
Tito (Yugoslavia, 1945-1987) 570,000
Fumimaro Konoe (Japan, 1937-39) 500,000? (Chinese civilians)
Jonas Savimbi (Angola, 1975-2002) 400,000
Mullah Omar - Taliban (Afghanistan, 1986-2001) 400,000
Idi Amin (Uganda, 1969-1979) 300,000
Yahya Khan (Pakistan, 1970-71) 300,000 (Bangladesh)
Benito Mussolini (Ethiopia, 1936; Libya, 1934-45; Yugoslavia, WWII) 300,000
Source: The worst genocides of the 20th Century

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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