A conversation on faith (riVeRraT and arachnophilia)

exactly. all this other stuff, most of the crap they spew in churches these days, reeks of following false gods.i don't really talk about it much here, because it's not something i can really explain or quanitify. but i rarely feel alone, spiritually. i may think god is out of the realm of our understanding, but i can feel that he's there -- i've never doubted my faith in that regard. there's only one place i can't make that connection: church. it's like god doesn't go there. it just feels lonely and empty to me. i removed myself from that guilt cycle long ago. it's nothing but self-destructive. i think it has to do with the way christianity is taught today. we're all sinners, we all deserved death and eternal punishment. but god loves us, so he put all of our sins onto someone else, and all we have to do is believe and they're forgiven.well, what happens when we sin? does jesus die a little more? suffer more? do we have to signup again, start from the beginning? we're told we should feel guilty, and we have no idea what to do with this guilt. so it builds amd builds until we can't take it anymore, and go through that revival thing, confirming our faith again.what it really does is strengthen a cult-like mentality -- devotion to a group, and cheapen the faith.the way i look at it now is a little different. i think that christ's sacrifice was a grand gesture on the part of god, saying that he just doesn't care anymore. he's not holding it against us, because he understands and accepts our flaws, and loves us anyways.i don't think god expects us to be perfect. i just can't see him as rigging the game like that. if the standard is perfection of acts, then it should mean something. if the standard is faith, then sin shouldn't matter. it's silly to try to have it both ways. what i think god really cares about is what's in our hearts. that we try to represent him, and show his love to others who don't know. i think that's what jesus was trying to say all along. do we really want to change, though? be honest, and think about it. if we did, we would. it is humanly possible to be perfect in the eyes of god. jesus did it. the difference with us is that we have human wills, and human nature.but don't listen to those folks who tell you to surrender your will to god. that's kinda culty, if you ask me. i don't think god wants puppets, really. god wants people with wills for good, and for love, but the whole thing with going to church 5 days a week and studying and praying doesn't mean a whole lot when god defined his will for us as "go tell the world" and "love one another."if you want do that by giving up your life and living as a missionary, maybe that's one thing, but this half-assed love-the-church stuff isn't what he meant. if our wills were REALLY there maybe we would all be working for charities, and giving away our stuff and money to feed the poor.nobody ever really totally surrenders, and i don't think god asks that we do. submission isn't the same as ceasing to exist as an individual. is it any of your business whether or not they sin? that's between them and god. i often get a lot of respect from people when they find out that i'm christian. i don't really tell people much, or shove it down their throats -- the best message is a sublte one these days. but i've had a number of gay friends, too. one knew i was a christian, and asked my why i treated her differently than every other christian she knew, and what exactly the bible did say about homosexuality.i told her that it doesn't say a whole lot about lesbianism, but that it does say male homosexuality is a stoneable offense, at least 3000 years ago in israel. i quickly balanced it with the statements of jesus: i told her that jesus said we shouldn't judge others, and that we should love and have compassion for everyone, regardless.i think she was fairly impressed with that answer, and wondered why no one had ever put it like that before. i tend to avoid a lot of standard religious cliches, so none of that "we're all sinners (you're a sinner!)" stuff. i like my way better. i think it gets the message across better, in more understandable and down-to-earth terms, and kind of makes people people realize that it's not christianity that's crazy, just some christians.(added in edit by AdminNWR: initiating this as a continuation of a discussion that began on another thread. The most recent posts in that thread were Message 49 by riVeRraT and Message 50 by arachnophilia)This message has been edited by AdminNWR, 12-09-2005 07:35 AMThis message has been edited by arachnophilia, 12-09-2005 05:35 PM

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אָרַח

Can I just please ask that if anyone joins thread to try and avoid angry responses about being gay, and to avoid calling anyone a gay basher please? My Pastor had a sermon on false Gods, and what they are these days. Some of the things were, sports, material things, RELIGION, your children, and a few more. I couldn't agree more. Too often people put church before God, and want to build up the church, instead of building up the kingdom. I think that the more we seek him, he drops little tastes of just who he is. When I experience these things, I then can understand why people dropped dead in his presence in the bible. It's like all the bad gets blasted away by his presence, and your body can't handle the shock. Which will bring me to another point. I think I expressed myself incorrectly there. I feel bad, because, I let myself down, not so much that I let God down. After all, he already knows what I am going to do. It's more my desire to be like him. But I am so far from that because of my life, and all the things I've been through. I don't regret it, because that is what brought me to know him, it was my "training".The fustration comes in when I let myself down. I think people in here, no matter what their belief indentify with it. You can see it when people ask questions like, if God exists, then why does ..... Sure, how can we fully understand the light, without knowing the dark? Yes, I do want to change, because I have experienced the joy of being close to the Lord. The more I seek him, the more he shows me. If I devoted myself to a life of sin, which I did before ( I also don't think this is wrong) then I would not get to experience his joy, or the gifts of the Holy Spirit as much.It's very clear how the Holy Spirit convicts me when I am doing things wrong. I am not gay, so I do not know if a gay person would feel this same thing if he/she was seeking the Lord. Would they feel they were wrong?I do know that if I was going to start preaching, or be a Pastor, that I would try to have my life as righteous as possible before opening my mouth. I have already chosen to be transparent about everything I do, and not keep anything from anyone, because I am already in leadership positions, and I hold myself accountable for everything I do. When God says ok, move up, then I will. Yes, I agree with that. That is why I look at my role in the church, and what it is accomplishing for the kingdom.MY church is pretty cool. They call themselves a "sending church" It is in our mission statement that we are to build up leaders and send them out.These verses from Ephsians 4 explain it:

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11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

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By seeking the Lord in our services we can come to know him, how awesome. But these services are not for the church. They are for the outside world, the real kingdom of God. Yep, I agree. But you don't have to give up your life as a missionary. If everyone did that, then there would be no money for sending them out.God showed me to build up my business, and use the sucess he blesses me with to give money to those who need it. So not only Am I part of a charity org, I help finance it as well. But bringing supplys to those in need is a daunting task indeed.I think what is really all about is being obedient to God. That is to include God in all your activities, and ask him his advice on things. I feel as though I recieve answers. Sometimes those answers even go against anything I've been taught, it kind of confirms that it is not just coming from my own head. Yea, what good does it do to lock yourself away in a house on a hill for the rest of your life? You really didn't answer the questions there. I am only asking because I seek your advice, I like your attitude. But your answer is correct, it is not any of my business, it is between them and God, and I am to look at them, or anybody the way God looks at them. I do that, and it helps me greatly to accept people the way they are.But when someone makes it my business, and asks me to say its ok, I don't think I should have to do that. I don't hold them accountable for anything, because they aren't doing it to me directly, but when its starts getting in my face, then it starts becoming something that affects me, not necessaraly in a negative way, but it affects me.When I sin, I am very careful not to let it affect those around me, it's not my desire to do that. Everything we do in this life, every word spoken has an affect on those around us. There is great power in just the spoken word, and then again in our actions. I completely agree. But when it comes to assigning leadership roles, and making laws, doesn't it become a different issue? How do we apply that love and compassion then? Again, I ask, do we encourage sin?I feel like I should not encourage, but I will forgive it, no problem. Some?
Probably more than that.

I made this a "Great Debate" thread, so that others should know to keep out. The two of you could decide later to open it. But for now it is a discussion between you and arachnophilia.Enjoy the the conversation. And may we all learn from reading it.

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hmm, two great debates. i dunno, this doesn't really feel like a debate (the other doesn't much either)brenna expressed interest in joining. i think she'll play nice, but i'll leave it up to riverrat. it's quite nice to actually talk to other reasonable christians on this board, instead of fighting with the unreasonable ones. i'm glad that rr is more open than when he came here.

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אָרַח

well, neither of us seem like the gay-basing type, so i think we're ok.brenna has mentioned that she'd like to join in. we're pretty close in ideology (and good friends) so i don't suspect it'd turn into a "jump on riverrat" fest. but i'll leave the decision up to you. (we can always throw her out if she gets obnoxious. ) well, we really should be out there living the life, you know? i guess "building the kingdom" is what i mean, but i'm still not fond of christian cliches. but we should be trying to live christ's teachings, and his love.i see church as often in the way of that (isolationist types) and often in the way of other spiritual things. people like to be safe in their faith. but like you said, i'd rather believe in something real than something easy. my personal journey has been very inwardly difficult, full of doubt. though never about the existance god, generally about everything else. it hasn't been easy, and it's still not easy. i've found that the more you look for answers, the more questions you find, and i'm up to some pretty big ones.brenna and i had a mutual friend. i don't mean to speak badly of her, but maybe it's a good example of what i mean to say. she's still my friend, but she doesn't talk to brenna anymore, and we have a sort of unspoken agreement that we don't talk about anything religious anymore. but she's the church-going type, and by "going" i mean a lot. i'm not sure how much time she has for it right now, but it used to be a few nights a week, 3 services on sunday. she pretty much only hung out with church people. church was her only real social life. i wouldn't say her church was a cult, but sometimes she acted a bit like it was.occassionally, she would just cut me out of her life entirely, and forcefully. i think i was challenging to her faith, and she saw me as temptation. we had a kind of on-again off-again relationship for a while (the back and forth was not my choice, just her uncertainty, really). she would decide from time to time that i basically wasn't christian enough (two yoked unequally, and all that). so she'd just turn into the church, withdraw, and i wouldn't hear from her for a few months.it was heartbreaking, really. not so much for me, but because i knew what she was doing to herself. she's still kind of doing the same thing, though not as bad. i think she's starting to come out of that "young christian" phase. we're a little nutso when we start out. her heart is in the right place, but she was just caught up in the dependency of it, and that guilt cycle.brenna and her mom say it's a lack of guidance in the church. they're ALL young christians there, no matter how old they are. most everyone has only recently been saved, and the older ones simply haven't grown out of it. and they think they have all the answers, and the outside world is going to eat them or something. it's like the blind leading the blind. i'm bright enough to know that i don't know very much -- if i have a question, it'd be nice if there was someone there for real wisdom in guidance.they had a question and answer session one night when a service ran short. i stumped the pastor. that shouldn't really happen. it's like trying to take a class at school, and having to explain the material to the professor. i think we all have a point at which we stop questioning, out of fear of what the next answer will be. i think i might be at my point, actually. i've been stuck on one for two years or more now. i know god exists, but i'm starting to think there's less to it than we know. like the wizard of oz, smoke and mirrors, with a regular guy behind the curtains. it kind of feels empty in the center, like if i think to hard, and i search to much, i won't find anything at all.it's kind of hard to explain, really. i'm not losing my faith. but i'm starting to think i'm chasing something that isn't there, at least anymore.some say that for god to even exist rules out free will. maybe he really did sacrifice himself for us? or maybe he's just hiding really, really well so we can never really know and we just have to believe. i dunno, but answering this question kind of scares me. ok, i think i understand what you mean. it's kind of like failing an exam, which i might have just done last monday. i'll feel bad -- and maybe next time i won't put my self in the position i was in, and actually study ahead of time.i think the point of what i mean to say is that we should avoid the nerve-racking guilt for what god's counting against us, because he's not anymore. a little bit of disappointment can be good, if it brings change, but the standard christian mode is just self-destructive. it doesn't actually bring any change for the better, just slingshots someone around like they're a manic-depressive.change never comes quickly -- anyone who changes overnight is just lying to themselves or others, and the consequences are often bad. our relationship in christ is one of growth, not radical revival. not sure what you mean here (i mean, i agree, just not sure how it applies)but, comparing to what i just said above, faith brings good works. and it does this because we want to try to do better, not because we're trying to fulfill a law. i think a good section of christianity treats paul's epistles as the "the new law" and tries to follow them to the letter, which defeats the whole point jesus was trying to get across with his life and his death. jesus wanted our hearts in the right places, and the right actions would naturally stem from that.god's not sitting up there with a score-card: "ok, johnny gave two cans of food to the poor today, 1 point." we should have compassion on our fellow man, and giving to the poor will come because we care -- not because we have to. it's changed for an ultra-specific legalistic duty, to a way of thinking and feeling.acts on their own don't mean anything. faith on its own does not exist. we should help people, and not judge, and those kind of things not because we have to but because we want to, and because they are the right things to do. i don't know. depends really, but i'm going to guess probably not. do we think we're wrong when we eat a ham and cheese sandwich? technically that's a sin too. actually, two sins. three, if the bread isn't flat and it's passover. i mean, we outright ignore god's law on a regular basis. we get our hair cut, we eat the wrong things. me, i'm an artist. i make photographs, which are technically chemical etchings -- graven images. i break the first or second commandment (depending on how you count) on a pretty regular basis. do i feel it's wrong? no, not really. i don't think god cares -- i'm not worshipping my pictures. but surely this infraction, part of the ten commandments, the laws that god himself wrote down for us, is more important than a lowly sexual law a book or two down the line.so, what do i do? do i repent and never take another picture? or do you think this is ok, because it's not what god meant? or do you think it's ok, as long my heart's in the right place?see, i can come up with a pretty weighty argument against myself. i mean, commandment 1 or 2. who am i to make a judgement about a "lifetsyle of sin?" i could probably make more serious allegations, really, but we all could. i chose this because it illustrates a point in biblical application, and because it's kind of silly, but really true (orthodox jews can't take pictures on saturdays). yes, i think that's a good attitude. honestly i haven't been to church in a long time because i'm so disgusted with the churches around here (well, everything around here). everything's fake. a significant portion of the churches i went to held fundraisers -- FUNDRAISERS! -- not for the poor. not for charity.for building a bigger church.the pastor i mentioned above, i talked to him once about it. i cornered him, and asked him why they were spending money like this when it could be going for, you knowm, christian purposes. his answer is that god had blessed the church so much with such large congregations that they could no longer fit in the building they were in.i'm a firm believer in the fact that a church is not a building. go hold service outside -- god created a whole world for us. why have such huge numbers? whenever two meet in his name... why have a stage? it's not about who sees you.maybe i'm just impractical. but if they're basically wandering the desert anyways, why not give the water to the people who need it, not the people who have it. well, that'd good. i'm all talk, really. still bumming with my parents, broke myself. i'd be careful of that. this was something i dealt with a few years back. i found out that i was basically deluding myself, the hard way. reality can be quite nasty. not much, unless you solve the mysteries of the universe and write it down for posterity. but not everyone can do that. mostly, the good is done in our day-to-day lives. well, it's really a hard question. i don't think i have an answer: i don't know what god really considers ok, or not. does someone literally come out and ask you "is it ok if i'm gay?"i think a good answer, for them, might be that "god loves everyone, no matter who they are or what they do." too often we're quick to present the wrathful and just face of god, and not the compassionate and forgiving face. i think, really, at the end of the day, it doesn't actually matter. i dunno, i've kind of always been confused by the notion of christian leadership. we're not really one above the other, and we're not really leading anyone anywhere (or at least we shouldn't be). christ is the head, but i don't see a heirarchy below him.it's not really up to us to make rules, or (spiritual) laws. i don't think it's encouraging sin, really, to say that it doesn't matter. especially if you're talking about children in the church. kids and young christians screw up, it's what they do. the important thing to note there is that it's not the end of the world when they do. god's not holding it against them.far, far too often i've seen the backlash against adults who did not "encourage sin." if you don't let the kids do it, they never learn why not to. and at some point, they rebel, and it just goes crazy from there.did you know the amish have a policy where they let the teenagers go away for a period of time into the modern world? they see it as sin, of course, so the analogy plays, i think. they encourage them to go out and do whatever they want. we're talking illicit drugs, strip clubs, prostitution, drinking, and all kinds of modern pleasures the amish simply forbid. the kids go crazy, and they don't have to come back. but almost all of them do.you kind of have to let people do what they're gonna do, and learn their lessons. i think that's why sin and temptation exist. they're learning experience, like we were sayign with the disappointment and change above. in that case, it can actually be something of a good thing. it's like learning to handle good relationships in a mature way by screwing up a few in immature ways. only here, the relationship's with god, and he forgives a lot better than any human. now, if you mean LAWS as in "the us government" i think that religion should relaly stay out of that. even jesus was a separationist: give unto ceasar what is ceasars, give unto god what is god's. it's really not our position to tell people what they can and can't do based on morality, legally. our morality actually abhors that kind of thing. god makes the spiritual laws, but it's not up to us to enforce them, or condemn the people who don't follow them. so i think that making laws strictly based on religious reasons doesn't hold up religiously (not to mention constitutionally). well, i was being generous. i really don't think the radical fundamentalist movement represents all christians everywhere. and certainly a lot of people grow out of the bad tendencies.

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well, neither of us seem like the gay-basing type, so i think we're ok.

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brenna has mentioned that she'd like to join in. we're pretty close in ideology (and good friends) so i don't suspect it'd turn into a "jump on riverrat" fest. but i'll leave the decision up to you. (we can always throw her out if she gets obnoxious. )

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Brenna can join us, but not just yet. I would like to continue this one on one for a page or 2. I took awhile to get back to you, because of my busy schedule, and I wanted to take the time to think things through about what you are saying here. Also did some praying. This response alone might take me over an hour to write out, so take some time to read it. I would like this discussion to get deep.I wrote that about gay bashing, because some people in this forum have me labeled as a gay basher just because I am against gay marriage. It's not even that I am against it, its just that I do not feel it is a marriage. It is clearly a different thing, requiring different rules. For example, when to women who have adopted a child together get a divorce, who is the father? California has already awarded a woman fatherhood in a court.

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well, we really should be out there living the life, you know? i guess "building the kingdom" is what i mean, but i'm still not fond of christian cliches. but we should be trying to live christ's teachings, and his love.

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Christian clichés suck. They are almost impossible for someone who doesn't have a relationship with Christ to understand, and they will learn nothing from it. But between us, it is ok. But your right, I have learned that the only way in this world we live in today, or any other world, to spread Christ’s love is by loving those around us, the way Christ loves us. That is the whole battle right there.

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i see church as often in the way of that (isolationist types) and often in the way of other spiritual things. people like to be safe in their faith. but like you said, i'd rather believe in something real than something easy. my personal journey has been very inwardly difficult, full of doubt. though never about the existance god, generally about everything else. it hasn't been easy, and it's still not easy. i've found that the more you look for answers, the more questions you find, and i'm up to some pretty big ones.

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The message this past Sunday was just that. Reading scriptures is almost a waste of time to spread the word these days. We are an experience driven society. People want experience, before they will believe in God. That’s just what I had, an experience. Up until that point, I was uncertain, and living my life the way I always had. I was always a good person, but probably my own worst enemy.I would like to hear some of those big questions.

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i wouldn't say her church was a cult, but sometimes she acted a bit like it was.

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I understand that whole situation. My cousin's best friend just up and left her for some cult like religion. Said she couldn't associate with her anymore. This is a little more extreme than your case, but it was my cousins biggest fear when I started going to church. I assured her that would never happen, and it shouldn't.I believe in what I believe in, strongly. I am not afraid to put it to the test, all the time. If what I believe in is the truth, then the truth will stand its ground. I do not want any of my relationships to change, just because "I found God". Instead they should get better, because I am a more loving person, and can see people spiritually, as well as physically now. Share that thought with your friend.

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it's like the blind leading the blind. i'm bright enough to know that i don't know very much -- if i have a question, it'd be nice if there was someone there for real wisdom in guidance.

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If you have a question, although I am a new Christian also, the church I go, most of the people there have been there for 25 years or more, including the Pastor. I find them just as down to earth as can be, and for the most part have a healthy attitude towards it all, and people who don't believe. They try their best to not be traditional. They don't want it to be like church. I can always pass questions on to them, if you would like to hear another perspective.I learn in a course, called "the art of hearing God 101" that once we have our experience, it is that day that our spirit is born, and starts to grow. (oh BTW, I meant to ask you, do you feel the Holy spirit?) I was always misunderstanding that, and calling myself a born again for so many years, just because I accepted Christ as my savior. But I didn't change any of my ways, so I wasn't really getting it.But once I felt the Holy spirit enter into my life, things did change. Mentally and physically. We can talk about it if you like. It was on that day that I felt something different about myself. I often say, it is either the day I went crazy, or the day I meet up with God.But I knew, from that moment, that I was now going to enter in to a different arena, and a walk that was going to be a little more tougher than my walk before. It is good to have the mentors I have. they have shown their love over and over to me and my family. I hope it never changes.I had called my Pastor the night before he got a hernia operation, and left a message. It wasn't that important. But the second he got home from the surgery, he called me. It was like a few hours after the surgery. I was just blown away by that. He is not even getting paid to be a Pastor, he is a volunteer.

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they had a question and answer session one night when a service ran short. i stumped the pastor. that shouldn't really happen. it's like trying to take a class at school, and having to explain the material to the professor.

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Well I guess it shouldn't happen, but it is hard for everyone to know everything. But he should at least said, let me get back to you with an answer. I believe if you have a relationship with God, and you are called to be a Shepard, then you should be able to ask God, and get some answers.

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it's kind of hard to explain, really. i'm not losing my faith. but i'm starting to think i'm chasing something that isn't there, at least anymore.

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Well where are you looking? Maybe that’s the problem. I got an answer for you about that, and it came to me as a bible verse. Let me go find it.found it, on my first try, wow.Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is”his good, pleasing and perfect will.I never find verses that quick. I use biblegateway.com and put some words in the search engine. Usually I get 100 results. This time it was just one. Check this out. I typed in, do not conform to this world.BibleGateway - Keyword Search: do not conform to this world

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some say that for god to even exist rules out free will

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All depends what you think free will is. Yea we are bond by the laws of the universe, but that doesn't rule out free will.Maybe the people who think that are extremely ignorant to the notion of time, and how things operate, or the environment that God operates in. Just because he knows all, and can see what happens before it happens, doesn't mean that we do not have a choice.Its like putting a record on the record player. When they made the album, there was choices to be made. But then to hear the song, you have to put the album on the phonograph, and let it play.

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but the standard christian mode is just self-destructive. it doesn't actually bring any change for the better, just slingshots someone around like they're a manic-depressive.

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Yes, I can see how some churches and attitudes about God can do that to you. I think that is more man trying to control you with the power of religion. When we know the truth, we are set free. If you do not feel free, then you need to check up.

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anyone who changes overnight is just lying to themselves or others,

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I do not completely agree with that. I experienced a major change, practically over night. But there are many things about myself that will take much longer to change.We can get revelation from God, if we seek him. He will show us things, and help explain why some things happen. This can change us.
But if we are not seeking him, we will not get these answers, we will only be drawn towards the world, not God.

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i don't know. depends really, but i'm going to guess probably not. do we think we're wrong when we eat a ham and cheese sandwich?

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That is OT thinking. Jesus came to fulfill the law not change it. What does that mean? I struggle with that one. Right now I think it means that the profits said there would be a change, and Jesus came to show us this change, which by way of the law, and the profits, changed to the law and the way we look at it.It's what comes out of your heart, that is what is important. Jesus did express his thoughts about sexual immortality. I can see through my own addictions to porn ( I was raised in an environment where I was taught it was ok) how it disrupts my life, my attitude towards woman, my life, my family. I do not look at porn anymore, but the desire is still there. It is almost like a drug. My life is much better without it. I am too open minded sometimes, and would have no problem doing all those things I see in magazines, and videos, well not all, but almost. I never had a problem with anybody’s sexual preference, but now I can see damaging effects from certain things. Just where does homosexuality lay in all of that, I don't know yet. I am trying to define it. I don't want to condemn anybody for it, because then I am a hypocrite, but I also do not want to encourage it, because I see the harm it does.But again I say, it is what comes out of your heart. I tend to think that God will judge us based on what we know. That makes his judgment relative to the times. He must understand that if he created time. Staying true to the bible, while remaining relevant to the times, is challenging at best. I think we struggle with that in our church. We want to be in a fore runner spirit, and lead the way. But it is lonely out front sometimes, and easy to make a wrong turn.I say stick to the to most important commandments that Jesus told us, love God with all your mind heart and soul (which by itself is hard if you do not know God) and then love others like you love yourself, which can increase once you understand Gods love for you.

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(orthodox jews can't take pictures on saturdays).

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They also suck the blood off of a circumcised infants penis.
One rabbi here in NY had oral herpes and was transferring the disease to the babies, and even killed one.To me this is a clear indication that we cannot look for God in religion, or man. Also that we cannot judge those other religions as well.We can judge them for ourselves to determine if it is right for us or not. Luckily we live in a place where we can do that.I like to look for God in his creation, in art, in music, and in love.
I also look for God in the bad stuff as well. All of it is hard to explain.

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maybe i'm just impractical. but if they're basically wandering the desert anyways, why not give the water to the people who need it, not the people who have it.

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Yep, that is something I struggle with, and I sure some Pastors struggle with.I guess the only way to really understand it, is to get involved with the leadership, and actually become a leader in the church. Then you can get a close up view of the government of church.Then you can measure the fruit coming from the church and decide if the building is necessary or not. But looking in from the outside can give a distorted view.
If they won't let you get involved, then that raises and eyebrow as well. Our church would let anyone get involved who has their heart in the right place. They encourage it.There was a massacre in Burundi Africa a short time ago. One of our hope houses there experienced a severe blow, in that many of our orphans were brutally murdered. The town was devastated, and they were going to starve to death if they did not receive food immediately. Because we have a church, and a building, we were able to collect money immediately and send it to them, to help them rebuild. If we were all wanderers outside, we wouldn't be able to do that.What about equipping and training the saints? You need a building for that as well. That building costs money.Not everyone is called to give up everything they have and follow Christ into a mission field or something. I think I showed you this verse before:Ephesians
11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.The fullness of Christ.

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i'd be careful of that. this was something i dealt with a few years back. i found out that i was basically deluding myself, the hard way. reality can be quite nasty.

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So you think you were deluding yourself?
I am careful, and I do not feel God is asking me to do anything to our of the ordinary, or beyond my capabilities.Usually it is something like, not charging a customer, because they are an old widow, or charge them less because of their financial situation.I find he even guides me in what jobs to take as well.Do you feel like you hear from God at all anymore?

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well, it's really a hard question. i don't think i have an answer: i don't know what god really considers ok, or not. does someone literally come out and ask you "is it ok if i'm gay?"

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i think a good answer, for them, might be that "god loves everyone, no matter who they are or what they do."

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Yes, I agree with that. Of course its ok if they are gay. Its between them and God, not me.But does that mean I should support gay marriage?

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i dunno, i've kind of always been confused by the notion of christian leadership. we're not really one above the other, and we're not really leading anyone anywhere (or at least we shouldn't be). christ is the head, but i don't see a heirarchy below him.

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Just this year my church redesigned its government, and there is no hierarchy anymore. It is flat across the board. But there are roles that people are called to do.

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it's not really up to us to make rules, or (spiritual) laws. i don't think it's encouraging sin, really, to say that it doesn't matter. especially if you're talking about children in the church. kids and young christians screw up, it's what they do. the important thing to note there is that it's not the end of the world when they do. god's not holding it against them.

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Sin is wrong, I think we can all agree on that.We all sin, I think we agree on that.We should all be forgiven, as a matter of fact Jesus said we must forgive to be forgiven, so that’s not a problem.But just like "it's not really up to us to make rules, or (spiritual) laws" then we shouldn't make laws allowing things then either?If a teacher of Sunday school started cursing with another teacher in the class, and they both consented to it, they would probably be told to stop. They wouldn't make a rule allowing it, because, well they consented to it.

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did you know the amish have a policy where they let the teenagers go away for a period of time into the modern world?

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Yes, I know that. I love that rule. But the thing is that the children always come back. That is because they were taught well and can see the world for what it is.That doesn't make the Amish way perfect, but I have great respect for it.I try to do the same things with my kids. I have 5 of them. I bring them place and show them things, and try to explain to them what is going on. This way they are better prepared when they have to face it on their own. I use my own life as an example, and how I feel short of my full potential. I don't have any regrets, but it could have been different.

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now, if you mean LAWS as in "the us government" i think that religion should relaly stay out of that. even jesus was a separationist: give unto ceasar what is ceasars, give unto god what is god's.

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If ceaser says vote on an issue, then you must vote.
If your morals come from the bible, or science, or whatever, what makes one right over the other? There your morals, and you are entitled to them. You can vote the way you want to.Gays in the church(allowing gay leadership) to me if a definite no-no. Can gay people go to church, of course, all sinners go to church. They should be able to go there, and feel loved.Leaders should be people who repent of their sins, and admit there sins, and show a desire to change themselves. A gay leader would not fit that description. I think most gay people will not admit they are sinning. Probably not even admit that there is a God.It's a tuff issue to talk about, and I am sure it raises anger in some people who might read this. I am sorry for that, and I am sorry if I am wrong. But it is how I feel, and I remain transparent in my beliefs.Ok, i spent about 2 hours on this reply.

alright, no prob. i think she lost interest anyways. i'm going to break this up into a few discussions so it's a bit more coherent.

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i think they really lack meaning in any context. most people, when pressed on it, can't define a fair percentage of the cliches. that, and i think they're just kinda tacky. i don't like this whole testimonial thing. i know shopping for products online that testimonials are usually next to worthless -- unless they're bad. you judge the worth of the product by the seriousness of the problems, and how frequently they're reported, but NEVER the good stuff people say.i think a lot of christian experiences are highly questionable in nature, too. i'm not going to share too many details, really. but this is one i'm kind of still working through, and have been for a few years. i believed for a while that god would talk to me, in a manner of speaking. and i had thought he told me a few things that frankly didn't work out.so the question is, basically, am i making it all up? does god lie? is one of us just telling me what i want to hear? (although not everything was what i wanted, really.) is it something else at work here; am i being tested?there was some new information provided just the other day that's leading me to believe that i might have screwed it up myself. so the question right NOW is all of those old ones, plus some new ones. is this confirmation bias? when it works out, it's god, but when it doesn't it's my fault? does going back and forth like this make me crazy?there's no real easy answers for these.and it's pretty weighty. if it's all in my head, well, that's pretty damaging to faith, isn't it? i'm not sure it is a bit more extreme. sounds pretty similar, although she tended to go back and forth. oh, trust me i did. another friend and i were actually talking about this the other day. we were talking about the very few times that i'm ever actually really mean and spiteful, and how the claws came out one time, regarding this. i'm almost never pointlessly mean, but i'd been holding a lot in and there was a lot she needed hear. but not from me, from the bible. it's only really mean in the aspect of taking a person's choices down with their own supposed beliefs.i don't think we've really talked religion since. probably better that way. i'm not going to convince her, and it's only gonna cause problems between us. sometimes the best thing to do is to just shut up about your beliefs and try to do what's best between yourself and others. see above. i'm not sure about this whole "holy spirit" business. i believe in god, singular. i don't follow the whole "trinity" thing because it stopped making sense to me at a certain point. i know who i feel, at least i think i do. i wouldn't say that christian "changed" me. i think i mentioned this last time. i don't think it's overnight change. but it's definitally affected the way i've grown. too many churches are obsessed with change this and change that. burn your books, break your cds, avoid anything ungodly (including people).i mean, so what if i listen to secular, or even anti-christian music? so what if i pick up a copy of the satanic verses and read them? so what if my friends aren't christians?i don't think those are important, because the whole "purity" and ritual cleanliness ideas should have really gone away with christ. our salvation does not rest on those things. it was a more gradual process with me. but yes, it does get more difficult. well, this one was an easy one, really. i asked why matthew and luke listed different fathers for joseph. he hadn't even noticed. it's a little tricky to explain, actually. i kind of look within myself and what i believe, i look out in what i guess i would consider the external spiritual realm, and i look at what the bible says, often very closely.i've heard that romans verse dozens of times. usually, it's to justify avoiding the rest of the world and getting more involved in church activities. i don't think god wants us to be cut off from the world, but i don't think he wants us to be the same either. we are to be better, and by influence and example make the world better as well, even if in small doses. i've heard the "giant quantum computer" idea. god knows everything, including the results of any and all choices we could make. the choice is still ours, but the paths are all chosen. (remember "choose your own adventure" books? sorta like that, but much, much bigger) oddly enough, i'm listening to a record right now as i write this. i dunno if it's a good model, really. we can manipulate records a lot more than we can god's will. we can spin them at different speeds and in different directions, mix them, select what plays at what volume -- often creating something entirely new in the process. can you honestly say you've never been part of this process i'm describing? it ate me alive for years. they say change this or that. you try, you fail, you beat yourself up for a while or fall out of the religion, and then come back just as strong at some revival. i'm sure this is inherent to almost every evangelical/fundamentalist church, but not so much the more mainstream denominations. "practically." i dunno, i suppose it does happen occasionally, but i don't think it's common, nor is it usually an indication of healthy progress. well, it helps to know a little hebrew custom, i think. "the law" is "ha-torah." he's saying that we're not starting over, basically, but that what he's saying is the extension of judaism. if you look, part of it are. a lot of the stuff people say about him, though, is not.i'm not sure if it's really about prophecy. i don't think there's prophecy in the torah that is not fulfilled in the torah (or one of the books directly following it). jesus did compare it to adultery, yes. and it could certainly cause problems with marriages in a similar way, too.i kind of look at like alcohol or drugs. it's not really healthy, and not really to be encouraged. it can cause serious problems if it gets out of control. i think if we could only keep one verse from the bible, that would have to be it. those are the two most important things. i'm not even usre god cares about the rest to any real degree.as a side note: i've seen the "all your heart" part used to tell people to get rid of a lot of things. everything from televisions to spouses (think celibacy). i think that's a bit extreme. does god really want 100% of everything? or am i allowed to like doing some other things too? yeah, i saw that. i just meant to point out that there is a legitimate religious group that reads that particular commandment as forbidding one of my hobbies.i don't really agree with circumcision anyways. i mean, the jews gave up animal sacrifices. why should god require that covenant, when the covenant that came after it has been partially abolished? and we're the covenant after that one. actually, i understand. i think "the bad" exists for a reason. you can see in my other great debate that i am defending the position that god creates evil as well as good.as for creation, well, that might be the reason i argue against creationism so fervently. i'm pretty certain that the bible is not a written literal history direct from god himself. but his creation certainly is. like you said, i'd rather believe in something real. and i appreciate god's creation for what it actually is. i find that thinking of the universe as extensive and us a little speck, and seeing the earth as 4.5 billion years old to be much more awe-inspiring than the creationist's paltry 6k.we have the benefit of living near the coast. when i want to be alone with god, or pray, or when i'm really upset or depressed, i tend to go there in the middle of the night, or for the sunrise. it kind of reminds me of how small and insignificant i am in the universe, which makes my knowledge that god loves me all the more meaningfull. and the sunrise reminds me that every day is a new one, and there is hope for the future. plus, the sound of the waves is quite calming.god built a wonderful church for us, it's a pity we hide from him in buildings. i guess that's true. but i'm sticking to my position above. god already built us a church. i suppose that's valid, but that's also providing shelter for those who need it, not building an extravagent new church here for people who don't. not so sure right now. i think that's probably right. i think i've been avoiding him for a while. but sometimes, yes. yes. i think a little a guidance goes a long way, as long as you allow them freedom and curiosity. i know too many christian parents who have made their children feel forced or trapped.

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well, the question is, like the other issues we've discussed, why is it our place to say? it doesn't affect me if two men or two women get married -- but it does affect them negatively if i say they can't. i don't think we should be about creating negative effects, just positive ones.and i think as a society we are really moving past gender roles. so "who's the father?" isn't really a valid question. that's sort of my point. it's not even GOOD ot thinking. a proper jew follows the law because they love god. they do it out of respect and duty, not guilt. (they get enough of that from their mothers...)why should a christian feel in the wrong for one abomination, but not another? that doesn't no. but i think the ideas of having love and compassion on people who are different does. it's not something that's harmful to other people, and it's not something that affects us, so i think they should have the right. i'm not sure i understand how that's the same? it's not even so much that it's a sin or anything (there are curses in the bible, as well as sexual euphemisms), but proper behaviour in front of children is a little different. there's a lot of other stuff that just wouldn't be appropriate for sunday school, either. that's a little different than law, imo. for instance, gay sex in fron of children in sunday school wouldn't be appropriate, but doing it at home doesn't really affect the children at all. well, i guess the issue is that my most important moral is "love others." as a moral, i don't think it's right to push personal morality on others, especially not in the form of legislation. if we were asked to vote on the issue here, i would definitally vote in favor of allowing full marriage rights to gays.because it's not so much "vote ofor your morality" but voting in a way that you think is right. well again, i ask you, do you have any intention of giving up haircuts, ham and cheese sandwiches, or lobster? do you have any desire to change your love of seafood or pork or having short hair? do you admit you are sinning when you go to subway or red lobster or the barber?i know i don't. what makes one abomination an issue, but the others overturned by christ? i think that might be a bit far. what relation does sexual orientation have to belief in god? i'm sure there's lots of religious gay people. i actually saw a bit of a documentary about hassidic/orthodox gay jews (now THERE'S a guilt complex lol). well, it's alright. it's a legitimate issue in christianity today, and one that people usually word in a lot more offensive ways.

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Well, I guess we can go on about Homosexuality a little more, but I don't want it to consume this thread.

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well, the question is, like the other issues we've discussed, why is it our place to say? it doesn't affect me if two men or two women get married -- but it does affect them negatively if i say they can't. i don't think we should be about creating negative effects, just positive ones.

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Well, when I walk down the street with my children, I don't want to have to say to them, I voted for gay marriage, but I think it is wrong. I would feel like a hypocrite.

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and i think as a society we are really moving past gender roles. so "who's the father?" isn't really a valid question.

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Well, I can say with great authority that you are wrong about that.I have a child with another person before my current wife now. She did not wish to be with me for whatever reasons. We were only engaged. She did not, and still does not wish for me to really have a relationship with my child, and makes it just as difficult as possible, even though I hold up my end and pay support. As a matter of fact, I had to take her to court to pay the support, so I could then get my visitation rights. To make a long story short, she made things as ugly as possible, and the courts have stuck by her side, and have not help my child know who her real father is.As a Christian I have to forgive her, but it is difficult when the hurt she is imposing on me, and the hurt the courts have imposed on me continue daily. Just as soon as I forgive, I have to forgive again.So there is gender roles.No matter what you do, the mother is the only one with breasts to nurse her baby. That is the root of it, if we forget about all this technology.Are we going to let technology dictate how are morals are, or are we going to let how God created us (or the way we evolved) dictate what our morals are?If there is a bunch of men on a deserted island, and no women, they will not be able to reproduce no matter how hard they try. So none of them can ever be a "mother". That’s just the way it is, and you cannot change it.If technology changes that, then we are relying on technology too much IMO, and I find it morally wrong, and just wrong in general. All of this technology could be gone in an instant, then were would we be?

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why should a christian feel in the wrong for one abomination, but not another?

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If we are going to follow Jesus by loving others, then we should take into account everything else he said and did. He was pretty specific about certain things, and sexual immorality was one of them.1 Corthians 5
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people” 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."I think its pretty clear there the difference between sexual immorality and all other sins.Its telling us we can associate with all people of the world, except sexual immoral people, and that we should judge those people inside the church, but not outside.AS far as all other sins are concerned though, he says later to actually become like them so that you can spread the gospel, but not to become sexually immoral.1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.1 Corinthians 6
18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.Your body is a temple arachnophilia. This is describing the effects and differences of sexually sinning, and then all other sins.1 Corinthians 10
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God” 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.I know he goes on to say other things about a woman covering her head and all that, but that stuff is minor compared to sexual immorality. I even find beauty in it. Like the way the Amish are, and the way the Hasidic Jews are. Although I would not be able to live my life that way now, because of who I am and my upbringing, I have great respect for it.

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it's not something that's harmful to other people, and it's not something that affects us, so i think they should have the right.

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I disagree with that one too. It does affect us, and our children when it becomes public. It also can affect those around you. There are many parents who do not understand why there child became gay, and it affects them, and their relationship with them. Of course this is a whole other issue, and I am not saying it is right or wrong, but just shows that it does affect others.Regardless of all that, it is not the reason why I am against it.

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but proper behaviour in front of children is a little different.

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That’s my point. We are determining what is proper or not. When little Johnny finds out his Sunday school teacher was gay, and then reads the bible, there will be a conflict.

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because it's not so much "vote ofor your morality" but voting in a way that you think is right.

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Well that’s my point, I don't really think it is right.
For myself I do not understand the desire to be gay. I can understand how it comes about, as I was approached at a very young age by my gay friends, and they tried to push there ways on me. Fortunately I was not interested in sex at all yet, and was scared out of my mind. But there I was not having been taught anything about sex, and all the friends at this one summer place I went to where having gay relations. At that point I did not think gay sex was wrong, but I thought all sex was wrong because I was so young.Then after that, I was almost molested by my swim coach, then another guy when I was 16 tried to "seduce" me, but by then I knew better. Funny thing was he was Mr. Georgia body building champ, and had a wife and kids.So I grew up around a lot of "gayness", especially living in NYC. It was a part of life, but at no point did I ever think it was right. Keep in mind that I was not religious during those times.I am still looking for an excuse to think it is ok, I have started threads on it, and always talk about it with my gay friends, and family.Even after all that, I do not have a problem if someone chooses to be gay. They can live their life the way they want, and have the freedom to do what they want.But freedom to do what they want, does not make the union between to same sex partners a marriage. There are clearly defining differences. Just look at the divorce rate in this country, compared to the separation of gay couples. Clearly "straight" marriage is more challenging than "gay" marriage.Above all else, the only way to make a baby, is to combine a male sperm, with a female egg. This is an indication to me of how things are supposed to be to maintain our race of humans.Unless you want to start including technology in our moral decisions. This already being done right here in these forums, and people won't even admit it. If we start basing our moral beliefs on technology, we will doom ourselves. Technology is awesome, and we should continue to use it, but if goes beyond "what is" then it raises an eyebrow, and we have to start to question just exactly what is right or wrong.Yes I do realize that even "straight couples" cannot conceive, and that technology can help them, but whos fault is that? There are stories in the bible about woman who could not conceive, but then God tells them they can, and they do. This has happened to many of my friends also. They try for years to have a baby, and the doctors say no way, but then God says yes way, and there is a child.But no matter how many times Johnny tries to get Johnny pregnant, it won't happen.I guess when they find the "gay gene" I will maybe start to think different. But to me I do not feel like I am thinking wrong, and I am a very open minded person.Some people may not care about it, and they don't care if their children are gay, if their neighbors are gay, they don't care if the whole world turns gay. But if the whole world turned gay, that would be the last generation then. That is another indication to me that it is not right. But the whole world is not going to turn gay right?And no, I do not care if my neighbors are gay, they make wonderful neighbors. I have always had a gay neighbor as long as I can remember.So in a nut shell those are some of the reasons I do not fell it is right. I never even mentioned the bible, because it was never a factor in me thinking it was right or wrong, but when I became Christian, it sort of confirmed it.Above all what I am trying to express here is that I have been called some pretty bad names in these forums for thinking that way. I do not feel like I deserve to be called those names, or do I want to hurt others with my beliefs, or what I feel is right or wrong. So I am confused. If God says we are to love others like we love ourselves, but then says that sexual immorality is wrong and to run from it, it leaves me in a state of confusion. There are to many unanswered questions. I will have to rely on my gut feeling I guess. I certainly wasn't raised to hate gay people.

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well again, i ask you, do you have any intention of giving up haircuts, ham and cheese sandwiches, or lobster? do you have any desire to change your love of seafood or pork or having short hair? do you admit you are sinning when you go to subway or red lobster or the barber?

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These are not sins according to Jesus.But I think your point is that we sin. Does that make it ok to sin? Just because we do?Jesus said if you commit one sin, you have committed them all. So lusting after a woman in my head is just like committing murder. By our laws, I can lust after that woman, but I cannot commit murder.It's all about where to we draw the line. Some people in this forum think that if the partys involved consent to it, then it is ok. But that still doesn't make it right in the church, or does it make it a marriage.

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i think that might be a bit far. what relation does sexual orientation have to belief in god? i'm sure there's lots of religious gay people. i actually saw a bit of a documentary about hassidic/orthodox gay jews (now THERE'S a guilt complex lol).

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lol, I know there are gay people who believe in God. God has even turned them around and made them straight. I am sure the desires are still there, just like we all have sinful desires.But for the most part what I see are gay people who are angry at God, and the church, because it is not accepted to be gay. I don't blame them for feeling that way. They do not feel like they are doing wrong, and they feel a need to be accepted. I understand that.Lots of people get angry when they are not accepted.

riverrat,i haven't forgotten about this discussion, but my computer's shortcircuited again. i have access to another computer, but it's not mine, so i'm a bit hesitant to start typing out long responses at the moment, but i'll try to get back to you in a few days.

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Np, take your time.

ok. well, remember the crowd that jesus hung out with: tax collectors and prostitutes. he preached to the undesireables, those excluded from the temple. the people who needed it, not the people who didn't. was jesus a hypocrite for helping these people? well, that really sucks. hopefully things work out a little better for you. but that wasn't what i meant, really. right, but what's to say that two men couldn't raise a perfectly happy and healthy child? is breast-feeding really neccessary? i was never breastfed (due to medical complications). i want to cut you off breifly here for a second. paul is not jesus.

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Mat 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

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Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw [it], they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

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Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

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Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

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it seems to me that this is the very idea that jesus was challenging: excluding people.

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Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

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Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

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maybe jesus was just trying to provoke a reaction here. tradition says that the woman who washed his feet was a prostitute, but i don't think that's anywhere in the text. (same deal with mary of magdala)i don't think jesus shied away from the sexually immoral. my parents don't understand why i'm getting a degree in art. one's a doctoral mathematician or pretty high regard in the academic community, the other is a house-wife with a masters in classical greek literature. that might affect them financially in the future, and certainly would affect what kids i have in the future.am i doing anything wrong?being gay can put tension on relationships, sure. but it doesn't need to. is it the fault of the person who's gay, or the fault of the person who doesn't accept them? what i'm saying, and what i think jesus was saying, is that we should accept everyone, regardless. we had a pastor disappear once at one of my churches. right after a woman in the congregation gave birth. she also disappeared, from what i heard.the problem, i think, is that we in the christian church try to set up our leadership as representative of god, when no man can ever represent god. we make mistakes, we mess up, and we sin. so what if the sunday school teacher breaks the law of god? we all do.the other problem is that the christian church places WAY too much emphasis on homosexuality, like it's the gravest of all sins and nothing else even comes close. i would put "idolatry" in that slot -- we're not even given sexual commandment until a whole book or two later. it's nowhere in the ten commandments, let alone first. but when the christian church becomes the anti-gay platform, a priest coming out of the closet causes a big stir.we shouldn't be the anti-anything platform. we shouldn't be discriminating, or judging, or anything except accepting, caring, loving, and compassionate. no no, there was a subtle grammatical shift there. it's not voting for WHAT you think is right, but voting HOW you think is right. voting to deny rights based on religion is wrong. i've had a few gay friends. one of them i just learned recently was gay. it was one of those "now that you mention it..." kind of things. i think that's a pretty rare sort of thing you described. most gay guys i've known don't try to push themselves on anyone. so this is a feeling you had before conversion? keep in mind that being a christian is supposed to help us grow, changing us from how we were. i think part of that change is acceptance of others. well, you can't say that someone can have the freedom to do what they want if you're for withholding one of those freedoms. or, maybe gay people just take marriage more seriously, because it's more precious to them since they're not often allowed to do it. i bet if we universally legalized gay marriage, we'd see a divorce rate abotu on par with straight marriage.i'd also like to take this opportunity to remind you that jesus is against divorce:

quote:

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Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

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why is divorce legal? and why do gay "sexually unclean" people keep jesus's teachings better than straight people? ok, sure. but does everyone need to breed? as paul says, he thinks we should avoid sex all together. and if everyone in the whole world were women, it'd also be the last generation. are women evil? should we hate our neighbors if they're women? the world is filled with a variety of people, and we are to be loving and accepting of all. well, i think that's the important part. if you feel that being gay is wrong, don't be gay. but it's not up to us to tell our neighbors what to do, or how to live. that's between them and god. jesus > paul.
the second greatest commandment > the first epistle to the corinthiansthat's how i see it, anyways. if jesus and paul disagree, i side with jesus. paul's just a man, jesus is my lord and saviour. jesus also fails to mention homosexuality. they are however sins according to god's law, which jesus said he did not come to change. it's not "ok" in the sense that we should do it, but it's "ok" in the sense that god has forgiven us. but really, though, do you feel you're doing anything wrong when you have that ham and cheese on unlevened bread? do you think a sandwish warrants fire and brimstone?it's not an easy answer. either the law applies to us, or it does not. paul often argues that it does not. jesus seems to argue for a reformed position on the law (intent, versus letter). well, lust is a thought. we can't police thought. it's against our privacy laws, and just impractical. rape, however, we can and do police. jesus was arguing that we should be pure in thought and mind, and intention, not just action.we as a society draw the line at the rights of others. someone murdering me takes away my natural right to be alive. someone lusting after me might creep me out a little (especially if it's someone i'm not interested in) but it neither breaks my bones or picks my pocket. two people i've never met getting married doesn't affect me at all. don't you think we'd be a better example of christ's love for us by accepting them? showing them that we care, like god cares for us? i realize we can't be perfect, but shouldn't we try? instead of pushing them away, and telling them they're sinners, and advocating taking away their rights and generally making their lives the hell we think they deserve?what would jesus do?

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I took some time to think about what you say. Well no, but what does that have to do with the law. I am not saying you shouldn't help these people. If he was trying to help them, would he set up a society to encourage and condon that behavior? I am the kind of person when I design things, I make them as simple and full proof as possible. I like to bring my thought process down to the basics, as basic as possible.When I think of how things should be in life, I always revert back to my stranded on a deserted island theory.Why do I do that? Well whether we evolved or we were created, I feel that we evolved to this point because we can reproduce, and raise our young naturally, or we were designed to that. Anything after that becomes an add-on, and not natural. If we disregard this process of evolution, or ID then we are disrespecting what got us here. To over look this and then rely on technology IMO is a mistake.If 2 guys were on an island together, alone, they would not be able to reproduce. He spoke to people that were not given the chance to change. If they accepted him by faith, then they were in, if not, then he sent them on their way. He never said to them, its ok to be a prostitude, or a sinner. He always encouraged them to seek the father, through him. I am saying we should accept them also, and I do. Just because I do not think that to men(or woman) together makes a marraige, does not mean that I do not accept them. Why did he disappear if sinning id ok? At leats he had a conscience and realized he wasn't setting a good example, so he left. Happens all the time. I agree. I thought I expressed that my thoughts on this were not religion driven.Instead I am looking for a way through Jesus to see if I am wrong about it or not. Until they are attracted to you. Ever see how some men go after women? Smae thing happens with men going after men. I have been approached too many times. I must look gay or something, lol that was a joke.Growing up in NYC you are surrounded by it, and I get to witness first hand how this world would be if it was as wide spread as it is here.Clearly it creates an enviroment that I am not comfortable with, but that may be my problem not theirs. But
I also wouldn't wnat my kids to grow up around it.I think I mentioned before about the subtlety of the gradual. The more something is sonsidered ok, the more it will be done. That is an evidence against people being born gay. I don't know about that one. There seems to be a fair number of gay couples that allow their partners to have sex with others. The ratio to straight people doing this, I do not know.Regardless of that stupid fact, I don't know if the divorce rate would climb. I think it is easier for two men to get along, or two woman, than a man and a woman. I've been pretty cloes to many gay relationships in my life, and I see how they functoin compared to a straight one. That is why I think they keep the divorce law up better than straight couples. Yes I know Jesus was against divorce. When seeking the Lord. He says if you can't contain yourself, then you should marry. When I say gay, I mean both woman and men. So do you believe we should all be able to do what ever we want, as long as the involved partys are consenting to it? No, he came to fulfill the law. What do you think that means? Three different levels of involvement.Quantom physics even recongnize that you can effect change just by observing something. Thats my question, WWJD?Just to summarize, I do accept them, I do care for them, I do not call them sinners, even if they are, for I am a sinner also, some of my sins are against the law as well, No I do not think it is a right to call gay marraige, a marraige. IT is not the same period.But I am looking for way, or a reasoning to change that way of thinking. If I am wrong I want to know in my heart, not just some gay liberal calling me a fundie christian yelling at me on a forum calling me a gay basher. That won't change my mind, not in the least.

well, when jesus said "he who is without sin may throw the first stone" he was in the position to do so himself. we are not in a position to judge. but is reproduction all there is to life? i mean, if 1 guy were alone on a desert island, he wouldn't be able to reproduce either. should we outlaw being single?there's lots of things we do in life that have very, very little to do with making babies. i'm an artist -- what purpose does that serve on a desert island? would i be drawing pictures in the sand? i doubt it. right, but he never said that he wouldn't accept us the way we are. if jesus excluded people based on their continued behaviour, we'd ALL be out. well not recognizing a gay marriage is really sort of similar to saying you don't accept them. well, exchange "religion" for "personal preference" or whatever it may be. the point i was trying to make was that we should not vote for our own personal opinions of what is right and wrong, but in a way that is right: not forcing those opinions on someone else. sounds like the problem is with some men not gay men. i don't think i agree with that. the problem with being gay is that it's not accepted. the more it's accepted, the more we hear about it. but that doesn't equate to there being more or less gay people. many closetted gay people hide it, and are even married to women. you find higher ang higher percentages of this the less and less homosexuality is accepted.all that does is create unhappy marriages between men and women. i think we'd do better as a society to have more happy relationships between men and men, or women and women, than more unhappy ones between the two genders. fair number of straight people, too. depends on what source you're looking at. i think this a great problem with pauline christianity. paul basically defines marriage in that passage as a "get out of hell free" card for having sex. i think a better way to look at it is that a marriage is a legal commitment between two people, a union expressed out of love. sex, in the context of such a union, is a bonus, another expression.if you look at the jewish interpretation of marriage and sex, they view it as a blessing, something holy in the right context. even an act of worship. completely different than the christian reading... right, but the point stands. if we divide all of humanity into one group and exclude all others, it fails. humanity thrives on its diversity. gay people, on their own, cannot reproduce. but neither can straight men on their own, or straight women on their own. lack of reproductive ability doesn't make a group evil, or not part of humanity.there are lots of straight couples that do not want, or cannot have children. legally, yes. and morally, i feel we shouldn't tell people they can't do something. ("consent" implies that the other part is older than the legal age of consent.) if we feel something is wrong, we can avoid doing it. but we can't go tell someone else that they shouldn't be allowed to do it, unless it violates the rights of another. observer bias in psychiatry says the same thing. but us observing them affects them, too. and probably too much a greater degree. we don't hid our lifestyles and preferences for fear of not being accepted, or fear of being killed or harrassed. they do, and often to disasterous results. well, that's good. what defines a marraige? legally, i mean, excluding the bible? well, i'm trying to change your mind the right way.

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