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Author Topic:   Mary in the Roman Catholic Church - intercession or idolatry?
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 132 (251026)
10-12-2005 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by New Cat's Eye
10-12-2005 3:13 AM


Focus on the Topic
We are starting to digress and call each other names.
Enough, already!
Im giving this one time to cool off. TOPIC SUSPENDED FOR 24 HOURS.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
Forum Guidelines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-12-2005 3:13 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 4:08 AM AdminPhat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 107 of 132 (251912)
10-15-2005 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by iano
10-11-2005 10:29 AM


Re: Another Religion's Faith.
If I am going to figure out what a religion believes, I will ask the people who practice that religion, not a believer of another religion who is trying to 'discredit' the first religion, in an effort to 'prove' their religious beliefs correct.
quote:
This would seem to be a reasonable approach. But there are problems with it. Asking National Socialism whether genocide was genocide would have resulted in an answer in the negative "Ridding the world of vermin" would likely be the answer received. Does this mean National Socialism was objectively about vermin eradication. Don't read into the analogy as me comparing RC with NS. I don't mean it so. But it illustrates the problems of dealing internally with a particular belief system.
I know Faith is (supposedly) gone, but...
The point being made is that if you want to understand what a group "believes they believe", then you ask a member of the group, not a critic of the group.
The point is not that one can judge the validity of the belief by asking a member of the group.
That is a seperate issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 10:29 AM iano has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 108 of 132 (251915)
10-15-2005 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
10-10-2005 12:07 PM


Re: Mediatrix, mediums between Godhead,and mediocre conclusions
First of all, Catholic theology quite clearly states that Mary is only human. One only has to check the Catechism of the Catholic Church to see this.
Faith writes:
The same site points out that Mary's supposed "immaculate conception" and assumption into heaven HAVE been made official, neither of which has any scriptural justification, and both of which usurp qualities of Christ.
Actually, I do think the assumption of Mary can be seen in the Scriptures.
Besides that, does the Translation of Enoch or Elijah's rising in the whirlwind into heaven in anyway usurp Christ's qualities?
In case you haven't noticed, Assumption is a Catholic way of saying Translation.
edit: corrected spelling.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-15-2005 04:00 AM

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 Message 7 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 12:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 109 of 132 (251916)
10-15-2005 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
10-10-2005 11:40 AM


Re: Reformation Protestant point of view
Faith writes:
Only God can hear prayer.
Faith, you make an interesting point here.
Could you please pray for me so that I understand your position better?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 10-10-2005 11:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 110 of 132 (251917)
10-15-2005 4:08 AM


Related Topic:
Faith, when you read all the folk legends and religious writings of the flood in all the cultures around the ancient world, do you consider this evidence that there was indeed a world-wide flood in the past?

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 111 of 132 (251918)
10-15-2005 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by AdminPhat
10-12-2005 3:58 AM


Re: Focus on the Topic
oops...sorry.
I didn't see this message.
oh well...might as well slip this in.
According to Catholic doctrine Mary is like the Ark of the Covenant of the Christian faith. The Israelites didn't worship the Ark of the Covenant itself -- they worshipped that which resided within it.
Consequently, the Ark of the Covenant now resides in heaven according to the Book of Revelations.
And speaking of the Book of Revelations...
NIV writes:
He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
...isn't this taking place in heaven?
What are these people in heaven doing with these bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints?
Faith, I've found an article that I think expresses my Catholic beliefs very well. I'm not expecting anyone to accept this. However, at the time I find it irksome that some would make rather sweeping statements about my faith without really taking the time to understand my own perspective. For anyone confused by this issue, please read the following:
The Intercession of the Saints By Jason Evert writes:
1. Since the Bible says that contacting in the dead is the abominable sin of necromancy (Deut. 18:10-12), the intercession of the saints seems blasphemous to me.
This objection to the intercession of saints is an honorable and sincere one. It expresses a disposition that all Christians must have”refusing to do anything that takes away from the adoration that belongs only to God. When this objection is raised, you should affirm that if praying to saints takes away from one’s devotion to God, then it is a practice that should end at once. Expressing this to an evangelical Christian will help alleviate his presumption that you may not be as interested in serving God with single-heartedness.
When the Bible mentions necromancy, it condemns the practice of conjuring up the dead, as Saul did through the witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28. When Jesus spoke with Moses....during the Transfiguration, this was not necromancy. When David asked the angels of heaven to bless the Lord, this also was not offensive to God (Ps.103:20-21). Likewise, when a Catholic asks St. Peter to pray for him, he is not conjuring up a spirit from Hades in order to acquire secret knowledge. After all, those in heaven are "like the angels," and are more alive than we are, since the Lord is "not God of the dead, but of the living" (Luke 20:36-38). So, if it does not offend God when a Catholic says "St. Peter, pray for me," we should all rejoice that God has given us the gift of Peter’s prayers.
2. But if you pray to the saints you are worshiping them.
Whenever discussing a doctrine, it is always effective to define your terms. "Pray" is an Old English word that means simply "to ask." In Protestant theology, the word has become synonymous with worship, but that is not the original use of the term.
Any time a Catholic utters a petition to a saint, it is taken for granted that it is a request for that saint to pray to God for them. For example, the "Hail Mary" contains the request, "pray for us sinners." If you ask a person to pray for you, it proves that you do not think that he is God. What needs to be stressed here is that none of our prayers terminate in the saints, as if they had the power in and of themselves to answer prayers.
3. If I had a problem at work, why would I take it to the volunteers in the mailroom if I were friends with the CEO himself? After all, doesn’t the Bible say that Jesus is our one mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)?
The flaw in this objection is that it proves too much. For if Catholics should not ask those in heaven for their prayers since we can go straight to Jesus, then no Christian on earth should ask a fellow believer for his prayers. When one believer asks another for his prayers, it is not because God is too distant or callous to listen to him. On the contrary, God is so generous he has given the body of Christ such unity that each member can pray for the others. This is a great gift, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16), and the angels and saints in heaven are inarguably righteous.
Though the Bible tells us that we must go to God in our necessities, it also encourages us to ask for each other’s prayers. After all, salvation is a family affair. Can the eye say to the hand, "I need you not?" Neither should we say that we don’t need the prayers of the rest of the body of Christ (on earth or in heaven).
Immediately after requesting that we pray for each other in 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul affirms that Christ is the one mediator. Again, let us define our terms. A mediator is one who comes between two parties with the purpose of uniting them. Christ played a role of mediation that only the God-man could, but Christians are still called to serve as mediators between Christ and the world. In no way does this diminish the unique work of Christ. On the contrary, it manifests it.
For example, Christ is our only high priest, but we are all called to be a nation of priests (1 Pet. 2:9). Christ is the only Son of God, yet we are made sons of God through adoption (Gal. 3:4). The Christian life consists in being conformed to Christ, and as Paul says, being "God’s fellow-workers" (1 Cor. 3:9) in his plan of salvation.
4. Aren’t the saints in heaven busy worshiping God?
Sometimes when discussing doctrines, it is helpful to take a step back and look at the objection from a different angle. So invite the person you are speaking with to imagine a man who spent 80 years on earth serving the Lord and praying fervently for everyone in need. After passing away, he walked across the clouds to the Pearly Gates. St. Peter checked the book, his name was there, and he was ready to enter. As he walked through the gates, he noticed a poem on a large sign that read, "Welcome to the Father’s house; we hope you enjoy your stay. In heaven, you may worship God, but you’re not allowed to pray."
To think of those in heaven as unwilling or unable to pray for us is to have a grave misconception of heaven. It is not an isolated part of the body of Christ that exists without concern for the other members of the body who are still working out their salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). Those in heaven surround us as a "great cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1), and the book of Revelation teaches that the prayers they offer for us "saints" is an integral part of the eternal worship given to God.
John describes the heavenly worship in these terms: "The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The angels also play a role in bringing our prayers to God: "The smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:4). If intercession among members of the body of Christ on earth is "good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior" (1 Tim. 2:1-4), how would such behavior not also be pleasing to God in heaven?
In the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31), the rich man shows concern for his family on earth, even though he is in hell. If a person in hell has such concern, and those in heaven are perfected in love and can finally pray with an undivided heart for the Church of God, how could they not be concerned about our salvation?
5. How can the saints hear our prayers?
Along with the concern about the "worshiping of saints" by praying to them, the question of their ability to hear us is among the most frequent of Protestant concerns. The book of Revelation is especially helpful in dealing with this, since it describes people in heaven who are aware of the happenings on earth (Rev. 6:11; 7:13-14). They have this capacity according to God’s designs and not of their own power. Paul alluded to this when he said, "Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood" (1 Cor. 13:12).
Those in heaven are part of the mystical body of Christ, and have not been separated from us by death. Christ is the vine, and we are the branches. So, if we are connected to him, we are inseparably bound together with them as well. Thus, the angels and saints stand before the throne of God, offer our prayers to him, and cheer us on as we run the good race.
If those in heaven are of no help to us, is it that they do not care, or does God forbid them to know of our toil and render them incapable of praying for us? Encourage the person you are speaking with to take this to prayer, asking the Father if this is truly his plan for the body of Christ.
6. There are one billion Catholics and 300 million Orthodox. If one in a hundred of these prayed a daily rosary, Mary would receive 689 million Hail Marys each day! So, even if she could hear the prayers, she’d have to be omniscient to comprehend them all. And where would she get the time?
Since Mary is in heaven, it is literally true that she does not have time to answer all the petitions”she has eternity. Time in the afterlife is not the same as it is here, and so this is not an insurmountable objection.
In regard to the number of petitions, if the number were infinite, then an omniscient mind would be required. So long as the number is finite, then the hearer requires a finite expansion of knowledge, which God could certainly grant to a glorified soul in heaven. While discussing this, you could point out that 50 people in an Internet chat room can communicate simultaneously from around the world. If modern technology can enable humans to do this, God is infinitely capable "by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think" (Eph. 3:20).
When concluding any conversation”especially one on the intercession of the saints”it is always good to promise to pray for each other. Not only will this benefit both of you in the realm of grace, it will remind your friend that the body of Christ is a great gift to draw us near to God.
Jason's article here fairly well sums up my point of view as well.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-15-2005 10:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by AdminPhat, posted 10-12-2005 3:58 AM AdminPhat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 10-16-2005 6:41 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 112 of 132 (252002)
10-15-2005 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
10-10-2005 10:36 AM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
i actually would say to trixie that that is entirely the point that god is our intercessor with god. the idea is that HE made the effort to reach us, not the other way round. we don't need an intercessor so much as we needed someone to reach us because we weren't/aren't listening.
i have known catholics that i did not believe worshipped mary, but i have also paid attention enough to know that it is very easy to believe things differently from one's establishment *raises hand*. i am not catholic and i do not propose to proclaim that all catholics are heretics etc. but the definition of idolotry as many protestants see it is that you place something at an equal or near-equal to god... ie you raise it above the level of man. there was nothing special about mary. and many protestants see that praying to her (or saints or angels) is distracting. many catholics, i imagine, do not. but they probably would never say anything about it because it is sometimes better to seek peace than to cause strife seeking conformity to a subjective truth.
is mary an idol and do at least some catholics worship her incorrectly? probably. i know polish catholics view mary VERY highly and this stems from their previous cultural pagan worship of the feminine. i think many cultures share that and mary is being abused as a kind of fertility goddess (if the shoe fits, hunt eggs on easter). but the idea that much of judeo-christianity stems from paganism is not foreign. passover resembles and probably comes from a farmer's sacrificial rite to ensure crop return in the future, easter is a fertility fest (they didn't even change the name) ensuring the bringing of life (new life/resurection/spring, come on this is child's play), and christmas has always been a festival of light to ensure the return of spring (jesus is the light of the world), rosh hashanna seems like a fall festival celebrating and bringing a sacrifice by fire in thanksgiving for the harvest, yom kippur seems like a preparation for winter and an acknowledgement of the hard times to come as well as allowing winter to give you a clear slate for the next year by ridding yourself of all the bad stuff you did last year and allowing for rebirth to come in the spring.

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Replies to this message:
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 113 of 132 (252009)
10-15-2005 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by macaroniandcheese
10-15-2005 3:15 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
The topic is about the role of Mary in the Roman Catholic Church, rather than how some may go against the teachings of the Church. I don't deny that some RCs may worship Mary, but I am arguing that the RCC doesn't practice this and, in fact, actively teaches against it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-15-2005 3:15 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-15-2005 3:45 PM Trixie has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 114 of 132 (252015)
10-15-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Trixie
10-15-2005 3:30 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
i am suggesting that the worship of the mother of god is a practice inherent in the founding of the rcc immaterial of what church officials may be promoting at the moment. the original roman church was a highly organized body which was quite intent on the snazziness of the female (namely diana) and then christianity got grafted onto it... when the church became large-scale, it was because it was convenient. constantine saw christianity as being focussed and thus more apt to control people. so he jumped on board and then (just like so many in the old testament) purged out the competition. perhaps the church is not a reflection of this now, cool. all the better. but, to deny it's origins weakens your victory over them.
but there is undeniably a whole lot of extra-biblical mythology in the catholic church. recent movies can attest (no i don't trust hollywood to tell me about stuff, it's just the easiest rule of thumb).

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Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Trixie, posted 10-15-2005 3:53 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 116 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 5:14 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 115 of 132 (252019)
10-15-2005 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by macaroniandcheese
10-15-2005 3:45 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
Ok, maybe I should say that the topic has been about the role of Mary in the RCC at the present time. The original claim made was that the RCC practices "Mariolatry", the claim being about the present. The rest of the thread was dealing with the current teachings of the RCC, not the historical genesis of various beliefs and cults.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-15-2005 3:45 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 116 of 132 (252031)
10-15-2005 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by macaroniandcheese
10-15-2005 3:45 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
brennakimi writes:
but there is undeniably a whole lot of extra-biblical mythology in the catholic church.
Could you show me in the Scriptures where it says the Scriptures are the only source for knowing about God?
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not askng for Scriptures which authenticate the validity of their source. I'm simply asking for a passage of Scripture which actually specifically say that you can only trust the Scriptures themselves.
Also, could you please expand upon what the Catholic church teaches which you believe to be considered extra-biblical?
If you wish to respond and you consider this off-topic could you propose a new thread to discuss it further?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-15-2005 3:45 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 117 of 132 (252038)
10-15-2005 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-15-2005 5:14 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
it is probably off topic (though i've been informed everything i said was off topic). but i don't mind.
i am quite opposed to the idea that the bible is the only place to learn about god. however. the catholic church is quite well known for it's mythologies.
frankly that was an irrelevant comment and i should strike it from the issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 5:14 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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 Message 119 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 6:58 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 118 of 132 (252039)
10-15-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Trixie
10-15-2005 3:53 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
anyways.
what i am suggesting (since you are apparently incapable of inference) is that since the idea is so inherent in the foundations of the rcc, that people ascribe to it 1 without knowledge and 2 despite great endevour.
you seem to be taking great umbrage at my statements which is unfortunate and unnecessary. the point is that the difference of opinion comes from a difference of thought and goes far beyond being on two sides of an issue. many protestants view the mention of other individuals as being between a person and god as being idolotrous. even the existence of so many hierarchies of preists can be seen as such. many find the visual representation of anything as being at the very least distracting. personally, i find a displayed crucifix to be dangerous as one might be tempted to use it in a visualization which could distract one from an invisible god. and yet i own cross shaped jewelry (which i tend not to wear anymore as a symbol of my displeasure with the organized church as a whole and my distancing from the idea of human sacrifice). moreover, i am sure that there are protestants that view the great amount of ritual within the catholic church as idolotrous as well.
however, i imagine that catholics simply see their recognition of mary and the saints and the angels as just that--recognition of great service to god and a reflection of a desire to serve likewise.
it's a completely different paradigm and you can't compare the two. most protestants probably didn't know about the spear of destiny before constantine came out despite its alleged implications in world war ii. just as catholics weren't raised under calvanism or bred with the knowledge of the reformation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Trixie, posted 10-15-2005 3:53 PM Trixie has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 119 of 132 (252042)
10-15-2005 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by macaroniandcheese
10-15-2005 6:29 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
brennakimi writes:
the catholic church is quite well known for it's mythologies.
While I admit that there are several saints that are now believed to have never existed -- I'm not sure sure what other mythologies you are refering to.
Could you elaborate please?
brennakimi writes:
frankly that was an irrelevant comment and i should strike it from the issue.
Ok. But if you change your mind and would like to discuss it further please let me know, ok?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-15-2005 6:29 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-16-2005 2:21 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 120 of 132 (252098)
10-16-2005 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-15-2005 6:58 PM


Re: a bit of clarification and edification.
well. to start, there's all the things about the heavenly wars that milton invented. note: a novelist, not a cleric. there's the spear of destiny, the seven deadly sins, the regions of hell from dante's inferno (again, novelist). the idea that mary remained a virgin after christ's birth (despite the bible saying he had brothers and the blatant knowledge that jewish tradition at the time supported large families in order to fulfill god's promise of expanding the line). i'd continue but i'm tired and (not being catholic) i'd have to ask someone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-15-2005 6:58 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-16-2005 9:30 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
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